Post by RitaMarita on Apr 12, 2021 13:51:59 GMT -5
Many of you have had much more experience over the years in traditional circles than I have and I have recently come across something that puzzles me. The thing that gets me about it the most is that if I even try to talk to anyone about it they are like, "You are going into dark waters. Don't even look into it."
Have any of you have ever heard of Pope Pius XII's seemingly contradictory definition on the Form of Holy Orders?
He claimed that the "preface prayers" of each rite were the forms by which the power/character is given to a deacon, priest, and bishop. Yet, the Council of Florence, Trent, Catechism of Pope Pius V and Pope Leo XIII in his decree on Nullity of Anglican Orders seem to say (and agree) at least for the deaconite and priesthood that the true form was different than what Pope Pius XII said:
From what I gather these were originally the form:
1. For a Deacon:
RECEIVE POWER TO READ THE GOSPEL IN THE CHURCH OF GOD, AS WELL FOR THE LIVING AND FOR THE DEAD, IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.
2. For the Priesthood (2 powers/characters bestowed):
RECEIVE THE POWER TO OFFER SACRIFICE TO GOD, AND TO CELEBRATE MASS AS WELL FOR THE LIVING AS FOR THE DEAD.
RECEIVE YE THE HOLY GHOST ;
WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL FORGIVE, THEY ARE FORGIVEN THEM: AND WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL RETAIN.
The few people I have briefly talked to about this and my concerns concerning the deep change say that the Eastern Rites are approved and don't use these forms and that the forms of ordination were Rites established by the Church and not Church and therefore a pope can change them as much as he wants. But then... Why would we question the novus ordo ordinations?
I heard about these being the traditional forms before I heard about Pope Pius XII's encyclical and seeing their completely being left out in the novus ordo ordinations was the linchpin for me becaming a traditional Catholic.
So, I am not trying to be stubborn about it or anything but just am legitimately confused why no one talks about this in traditional circles.
I mean... Many traditional Catholics prefer not to do Pius XII'S New Holy Week because it led the way for the novus ordo and feel they can question that but then I bring this up and everyone who I talk to gets mad at me and tells me to shut up.
Anyhow... Even if no knows anything... Thanks for letting me rant a bit. I feel like you guys at least are sympathetic to me on most of these things than most traditional Catholics.
Omnia ad majorem Dei Gloriam!
Have any of you have ever heard of Pope Pius XII's seemingly contradictory definition on the Form of Holy Orders?
He claimed that the "preface prayers" of each rite were the forms by which the power/character is given to a deacon, priest, and bishop. Yet, the Council of Florence, Trent, Catechism of Pope Pius V and Pope Leo XIII in his decree on Nullity of Anglican Orders seem to say (and agree) at least for the deaconite and priesthood that the true form was different than what Pope Pius XII said:
From what I gather these were originally the form:
1. For a Deacon:
RECEIVE POWER TO READ THE GOSPEL IN THE CHURCH OF GOD, AS WELL FOR THE LIVING AND FOR THE DEAD, IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.
2. For the Priesthood (2 powers/characters bestowed):
RECEIVE THE POWER TO OFFER SACRIFICE TO GOD, AND TO CELEBRATE MASS AS WELL FOR THE LIVING AS FOR THE DEAD.
RECEIVE YE THE HOLY GHOST ;
WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL FORGIVE, THEY ARE FORGIVEN THEM: AND WHOSE SINS YOU SHALL RETAIN.
The few people I have briefly talked to about this and my concerns concerning the deep change say that the Eastern Rites are approved and don't use these forms and that the forms of ordination were Rites established by the Church and not Church and therefore a pope can change them as much as he wants. But then... Why would we question the novus ordo ordinations?
I heard about these being the traditional forms before I heard about Pope Pius XII's encyclical and seeing their completely being left out in the novus ordo ordinations was the linchpin for me becaming a traditional Catholic.
So, I am not trying to be stubborn about it or anything but just am legitimately confused why no one talks about this in traditional circles.
I mean... Many traditional Catholics prefer not to do Pius XII'S New Holy Week because it led the way for the novus ordo and feel they can question that but then I bring this up and everyone who I talk to gets mad at me and tells me to shut up.
Anyhow... Even if no knows anything... Thanks for letting me rant a bit. I feel like you guys at least are sympathetic to me on most of these things than most traditional Catholics.
Omnia ad majorem Dei Gloriam!