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Post by wenceslav on Dec 27, 2020 15:19:55 GMT -5
From another thread, Pacelli said: The following comments are based on a recent book by Fr. Aidan Nichols (O.P.) entitled “The Latin Clerk - the life, work and travels of Adrian Fortescue” published in 2011. Excerpt (scanned) from Nichols’ book URL: drive.google.com/file/d/1hrG6NhocRR9zXu1S9kkALPyva17sA83d/view?usp=drivesdkIn Nichols’ opinion, Fortescue resisted taking St. Pius X’s Anti-Modernist oath because he struggled with the following two condemned propositions from Lamentabili Sane. This stemmed from Fortescue’s sympathy for the (condemned) Mivart’s interpretation of Genesis. It seemed he blamed this on a presumed over-centralization of the Church specifically manifested(as he thought) in the personality of St. Pius X. Below is an excerpt from Nichol’s book on Fortescue’s truly disgusting opinion of this saintly and great pope. In conclusion, as Nichols mentions “Fortescue's principal gravamina concerned Roman centralization, on the one hand, and the liberty of historical scholarship on the other.” The latter point obviously taking him in a direction that explains his (private) opposition to the Magisterium and his reluctance in taking the Anti-modernist oath. Even as late as 1920 (three years before his untimely death), he penned the following letter to a colleague: The above disdain for the Pope’s teaching authority and approved Catholic devotions (i.e. Sacred Heart) puts an unsavoury taste in my mouth, at the very least, and I for one will take his research with a grain of salt.
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 28, 2020 10:19:00 GMT -5
From another thread, Pacelli said:The following comments are based on a recent book by Fr. Aidan Nichols (O.P.) entitled “The Latin Clerk - the life, work and travels of Adrian Fortescue” published in 2011. Excerpt (scanned) from Nichols’ book URL: drive.google.com/file/d/1hrG6NhocRR9zXu1S9kkALPyva17sA83d/view?usp=drivesdkIn Nichols’ opinion, Fortescue resisted taking St. Pius X’s Anti-Modernist oath because he struggled with the following two condemned propositions from Lamentabili Sane. This stemmed from Fortescue’s sympathy for the (condemned) Mivart’s interpretation of Genesis. It seemed he blamed this on a presumed over-centralization of the Church specifically manifested(as he thought) in the personality of St. Pius X. Below is an excerpt from Nichol’s book on Fortescue’s truly disgusting opinion of this saintly and great pope. In conclusion, as Nichols mentions “Fortescue's principal gravamina concerned Roman centralization, on the one hand, and the liberty of historical scholarship on the other.” The latter point obviously taking him in a direction that explains his (private) opposition to the Magisterium and his reluctance in taking the Anti-modernist oath. Even as late as 1920 (three years before his untimely death), he penned the following letter to a colleague: The above disdain for the Pope’s teaching authority and approved Catholic devotions (i.e. Sacred Heart) puts an unsavoury taste in my mouth, at the very least, and I for one will take his research with a grain of salt. It's good research Wenceslav. I don't agree with you that it makes all of his research worth a grain of salt, but it is unfortunate that he held these views on these specific topics. It does not, in my opinion, destroy his highly regarded works on liturgical history. It sounds to me that you have not read his works to make such a hasty judgement. They are heavily researched and well documented works. His works do enjoy the imprimatur, and also have never been censored or criticized by the Church's historians and theologians. That doesn't guarantee that everything is correct, but it does support the view that they are safe to read. I have never read anything in his published scholarly writings which stood out as a red flag.
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Post by Clotilde on Mar 13, 2021 0:11:03 GMT -5
Late to the party here: 1. We do not know the disposition of this biographer and any other bias, do we? It is easy to write a negative or discrediting biography. It is the view of one person and if he is predisposed against Fortesque, that may be a piece of the puzzle here.
2. With regard to his salty comments about Pius X, they seem somewhat tongue in cheek. He sounds like Fr. Cekada to be honest. I think I’d chalk that one up to personality just from reading that isolated quote.
3. With regard to his position on devotions: I say this as someone who has long been devoted to the Sacred Heart, there is a tendency among Roman Catholics to elevate devotions above everything else. I think most Roman Catholics are very pious and good people but sometimes they do hold sacramentals, novenas, etc. above taking advantage of our Apostolic traditions. I think perhaps one might accuse him of intellectual pride if he is complaining but perhaps he’s reacting to someone jumping on the latest devotional bandwagon as we see these days in the NO with everyone trying to get a miracle for the newest person they want to be a saint.
I don’t see any of this in his writings on the liturgy and they are well-documented and fairly objective. My guess is that he’s an intellectual and probably somewhat sarcastic but relatively harmless.
This really is not much different than today’s traditionalists complaining about the Holy Week rites or translations of the Psalms.
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Post by Clotilde on Mar 13, 2021 0:14:46 GMT -5
PS the reason I replied is because this is fresh in my mind as I am doing a close study on the parts of the mass and their history with my children. Today I used Fortesque and St. Robert’s Commentary on the Psalms for my lesson.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Mar 30, 2021 16:40:49 GMT -5
You guys always amaze me I'm so proud to have you at my Forum such good elevated discussions
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Post by RitaMarita on Mar 31, 2021 16:41:15 GMT -5
Wow... Never even heard of him until now... He wrote books on the Liturgy ans Psalms? I would love to know the names if they are good. 😇
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Post by Pacelli on Apr 6, 2021 17:34:33 GMT -5
Wow... Never even heard of him until now... He wrote books on the Liturgy ans Psalms? I would love to know the names if they are good. 😇 Hi Rita, I have some of his books, others are available online on archive.org. My take on him is that he was a first rate scholar and liturgical historian. He clearly understood his subject matter, and his documentation was very impressive. He wrote extensively on the history and development of the Roman liturgy, but he also wrote much on the history and development of the eastern rites. We are fortunate to have his works, as there is not too much to be found in English that covers liturgical history. Many of the other great treatments are in Latin, and that is much more difficult unless ones Latin comprehension is very proficient I found an old photo of him on Wikipedia, linked HERE , he is pictured in the center wearing the cope: Here is a list of his works that I found on that same link Fortescue, Adrian (1908). The Greek Fathers (EBook). London: The Catholic Truth Society. Fortescue, Adrian (1908). The Orthodox Eastern Church (EBook). London: The Catholic Truth Society. p. 497. Fortescue, Adrian; Gedeon, Manouel Io. (1911). The Patriarchs of Constantinople (EBook). London: Cambridge University Press. p. 122. Fortescue, Adrian (1912). The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy (EBook). London, New York: Longmans, Green & Co. p. 448. Fortescue, Adrian (1913). The Lesser Eastern Churches (EBook). London: The Catholic Truth Society. p. 500. Fortescue, Adrian (1917). Donatism (EBook). London: Burns & Oates. p. 68. Fortescue, Adrian (1918). The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite (EBook). London: Burns & Oates Ltd. p. 484. Retrieved 5 January 2017. Fortescue, Adrian (1934). Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described. Burns, Oates & Washbourne ltd; 5th ed edition. Fortescue, Adrian (1994). Latin Hymns. reprint: Roman Catholic Books. ISBN 0-912141-13-1. Fortescue, Adrian (2000). Orthodox Eastern Church. reprint: Adamant Media Corporation. ISBN 1-4212-4904-9. Fortescue, Adrian (2001). Lesser Eastern Churches (The Eastern Churches Trilogy). reprint: Gorgias Press. ISBN 0-9715986-2-2.
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Post by wenceslav on Apr 7, 2021 9:38:25 GMT -5
Whatever opinion one has of his theological bent, his taste in liturgical vestments was certainly odd - reminiscent of the some of the ugly vestments from the 1960s, in my opinion. Below are links to some of his “creations”. Note, I’m not saying all of it was ugly but some certainly were. Obviously this does not prove he was modernist or not but it does illustrate his taste for the bland. And he certainly did not favour Roman vestments which is off putting at least for me since I was raised in the SSPX. URL: ordorecitandi.blogspot.com/search/label/Fortescue
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Post by wenceslav on Apr 9, 2021 11:29:41 GMT -5
Here is an interesting article by Edith Cowell, one of Fr. Fortescue’s parishioners. Citation: Blackfriars Vol. 4, No. 41 (AUGUST, 1923), pp. 1029-1034. I want to commend Clotilde for getting it spot on. Fr. Fortescue was kind of like Fr. Cekada (whose Masses I attended when he was part of the SSPX and shortly after he became one of the “nine”). From a parishioner’s article below, Fr. Fortescue is described as “ There is no harm in saying—because everyone knows it—that he had a quick and very acid wit. Often—but not nearly so often of late years— he wounded the feelings of inoffensive people without, apparently, being able to realise that he was cruel. When he did realise it, he gave himself no peace until he had made amends. “. I think one can give Fr. Fortescue the benefit of the doubt - even in his apparently thoughtless comments about Pope St. Pius X - in the light of what Clotilde said and the obituary by Edith Cowell. Read the short article if you have time, it’s quite good and it illustrates many of Fr. Fortescue’s good qualities. URL: drive.google.com/file/d/1nFv5_FA1PMqI0nhTCA0re9dd8x_hqzEp/view?usp=drivesdk
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Apr 9, 2021 14:52:37 GMT -5
I have this fault...if there's a joke hanging in the air...I have to say it. Gets me in alot of trouble.
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Post by Pacelli on Apr 9, 2021 15:52:58 GMT -5
Whatever opinion one has of his theological bent, his taste in liturgical vestments was certainly odd - reminiscent of the some of the ugly vestments from the 1960s, in my opinion. Below are links to some of his “creations”. Note, I’m not saying all of it was ugly but some certainly were. Obviously this does not prove he was modernist or not but it does illustrate his taste for the bland. And he certainly did not favour Roman vestments which is off putting at least for me since I was raised in the SSPX. URL: ordorecitandi.blogspot.com/search/label/Fortescue In light of your last post, I think we all agree he wasn't a modernist, I have never thought that anyway, but I am happy that you don't seem to hold that view, as I think this priest was a fervent Catholic, even in light of the problematic comments that he made in private in regards to our great Pope, St. Pius X, which both of us don't agree with. I do agree with you that the gothic vestments, which as I understood were approved for use, are not as beautiful as the Roman vestments, but to my knowledge they were approved. I freely admit that I do not know what vestments were used in England in the early 20th century, but if that was the custom of the time as approved by the hierarchy, then he could not be faulted for actions that were innovative or against the law, or pushing a modernist new idea. I simply don't know, and I did try to research this, which is why I was slow to respond, to find out what English Catholic vestments were used during his time period, but I came to a dead end with no answers.
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Post by RitaMarita on Apr 12, 2021 13:33:02 GMT -5
Wow... Never even heard of him until now... He wrote books on the Liturgy ans Psalms? I would love to know the names if they are good. 😇 Hi Rita, I have some of his books, others are available online on archive.org. My take on him is that he was a first rate scholar and liturgical historian. He clearly understood his subject matter, and his documentation was very impressive. He wrote extensively on the history and development of the Roman liturgy, but he also wrote much on the history and development of the eastern rites. We are fortunate to have his works, as there is not too much to be found in English that covers liturgical history. Many of the other great treatments are in Latin, and that is much more difficult unless ones Latin comprehension is very proficient I found an old photo of him on Wikipedia, linked HERE , he is pictured in the center wearing the cope: Here is a list of his works that I found on that same link Fortescue, Adrian (1908). The Greek Fathers (EBook). London: The Catholic Truth Society. Fortescue, Adrian (1908). The Orthodox Eastern Church (EBook). London: The Catholic Truth Society. p. 497. Fortescue, Adrian; Gedeon, Manouel Io. (1911). The Patriarchs of Constantinople (EBook). London: Cambridge University Press. p. 122. Fortescue, Adrian (1912). The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy (EBook). London, New York: Longmans, Green & Co. p. 448. Fortescue, Adrian (1913). The Lesser Eastern Churches (EBook). London: The Catholic Truth Society. p. 500. Fortescue, Adrian (1917). Donatism (EBook). London: Burns & Oates. p. 68. Fortescue, Adrian (1918). The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite (EBook). London: Burns & Oates Ltd. p. 484. Retrieved 5 January 2017. Fortescue, Adrian (1934). Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described. Burns, Oates & Washbourne ltd; 5th ed edition. Fortescue, Adrian (1994). Latin Hymns. reprint: Roman Catholic Books. ISBN 0-912141-13-1. Fortescue, Adrian (2000). Orthodox Eastern Church. reprint: Adamant Media Corporation. ISBN 1-4212-4904-9. Fortescue, Adrian (2001). Lesser Eastern Churches (The Eastern Churches Trilogy). reprint: Gorgias Press. ISBN 0-9715986-2-2. . Wow! Lots of great resources here! I will have to look into these! Thank you! ☺️
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