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Post by Pacelli on Sept 13, 2020 19:39:30 GMT -5
It has come to my attention from both internet sources and persons directly telling me that the Ukrainian Catholic Church in response to COVID19 has adopted the practice of using disposable wooden spoons for single use administration of Holy Communion to each communicant. The wooden spoons will then after the Divine Liturgy be disposed of by fire. I do not know if this new practice is widespread, but it is happening at least in some eparchies and some parishes in both Canada and the U.S.
It should be obvious to any Catholic that such a practice is not under any circumstance permissible, even during a contagious plague. The Blessed Sacrament is not a symbol, it's truly the sacred Body and Blood of Jesus Christ and as such could never be lawfully subjected to fire in order to burn His remains in order to dispose of His remnants on a spoon.
The Ukrainian Eparchy of Edmonton in its instruction letter of May 26, 2020 titled, "Re-Opening of Churches and the Resumption of Public Liturgical Services" taught:
In my opinion, the truth that the using of fire to dispose of the Precious Blood on a disposable spoon is sacrilegious and forbidden is self evident and can easily be grasped by anyone who understands the reality of what the Blessed Sacrament is, but as Catholics should always look to authority for more certainty, I present the explanation of Canon Mahoney:
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Sept 16, 2020 17:42:31 GMT -5
I agree 1000% that I saw the same conclusion as you that is why I have not set foot in my Ukrainian Parish since this nonsense started and I may never go back sadly they really don't see the problem therefore I can only conclude they actually don't hold the faith about the Lord being actually present
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Sept 16, 2020 17:44:08 GMT -5
Secondarily since when are Wooden Spoons proper material to hold the body blood and soul and Divinity of God!
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Post by Pacelli on Sept 16, 2020 19:10:23 GMT -5
Secondarily since when are Wooden Spoons proper material to hold the body blood and soul and Divinity of God! Exactly, I didn't get into this in my post, as it focused on the use of fire to dispose of the wooden spoons which have the precious Blood on them, but the other issue is that wooden spoons, most especially one of a porous wood, that disposable spoons are made from, are completely unacceptable for using in the distribution of Holy Communion. Traditionally, precious metals are used in the handling of the Blessed Sacrament, for chalices, ciborium, patens, spoons, etc. In Church history, other materials were used, clay, wood, and glass. This article from the Catholic Encyclopedia explains it: www.newadvent.org/cathen/03561a.htm I don't believe a cheap and porous wood would have ever been used. The article doesn't define the type of wood used, but I would guess that it would have been a high quality wood that was carefully sanded and polished so that it could be easily purified according to the ritual. Any plea to prior practice does not get them off the hook in this case, though, as it would have to be shown that Our Lord at some point in Church history in an approved practice was allowed to be contained in, or a vessel used to distribute His Blood would have been made of a cheap and porous wood, which would later be destroyed by fire as the means of purifying it. I am not aware of such a practice and I firmly believe it never existed. An approved practice such as this would be treating Our Lord's precious Blood as not really present, and merely a symbol, and subjecting Him to fire would be outrageous, and clearly a sacrilegious act, as Canon Mahoney states. It's interesting that the Ukrainian hierarchy has made no effort to defend this practice, it's just taken for granted that a practice never used in Church history can just be imposed and by that it should just be accepted as legitimate. Their lack of any explanation, justification or defense alone should set off alarm bells that this is a complete novelty and a sacrilege.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Sept 20, 2020 15:59:05 GMT -5
Secondarily since when are Wooden Spoons proper material to hold the body blood and soul and Divinity of God! Exactly, I didn't get into this in my post, as it focused on the use of fire to dispose of the wooden spoons which have the precious Blood on them, but the other issue is that wooden spoons, most especially one of a porous wood, that disposable spoons are made from, are completely unacceptable for using in the distribution of Holy Communion. Traditionally, precious metals are used in the handling of the Blessed Sacrament, for chalices, ciborium, patens, spoons, etc. In Church history, other materials were used, clay, wood, and glass. This article from the Catholic Encyclopedia explains it: www.newadvent.org/cathen/03561a.htm I don't believe a cheap and porous wood would have ever been used. The article doesn't define the type of wood used, but I would guess that it would have been a high quality wood that was carefully sanded and polished so that it could be easily purified according to the ritual. Any plea to prior practice does not get them off the hook in this case, though, as it would have to be shown that Our Lord at some point in Church history in an approved practice was allowed to be contained in, or a vessel used to distribute His Blood would have been made of a cheap and porous wood, which would later be destroyed by fire as the means of purifying it. I am not aware of such a practice and I firmly believe it never existed. An approved practice such as this would be treating Our Lord's precious Blood as not really present, and merely a symbol, and subjecting Him to fire would be outrageous, and clearly a sacrilegious act, as Canon Mahoney states. It's interesting that the Ukrainian hierarchy has made no effort to defend this practice, it's just taken for granted that a practice never used in Church history can just be imposed and by that it should just be accepted as legitimate. Their lack of any explanation, justification or defense alone should set off alarm bells that this is a complete novelty and a sacrilege. I believe the new ukrainian hierarchy installed by the jesuit usurper bergoglio are crypto jesuit ukrainians
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 1, 2021 12:29:40 GMT -5
I have been told that the sacrilegious practice of burning the Eucharistic spoons has ended. I'm not sure of why they ended it, since COVID is still around, and that was the reason for it in the first place, but hopefully the real reason is that they woke up to just how evil this practice is, and that it can never be justified, even if there is a plague. Other means must be used, sacrilege is never an option.
On a note of lesser importance, I was also told that the requirement of wearing masks has also ended. This practice, which is undignified for Divine worship, is not even close to the problem of the issue mentioned above, but let's hope the Ukrainians realize that it is at a minimum an undignified practice and should never be used again.
I am not sure if this applies to all Ukrainian eparchies and parishes, but I hope so.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 1, 2021 17:52:26 GMT -5
The question is how could they justify it in the first place unless they didnt regard the real presence...further it's not due to repentance but" science(as they see it)...further further my Parish is still dipping the spoon in grain alcohol as Of July1
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 1, 2021 18:19:43 GMT -5
The question is how could they justify it in the first place unless they didnt regard the real presence...further it's not due to repentance but" science(as they see it)...further further my Parish is still dipping the spoon in grain alcohol as Of July1 I agree, to give them the benefit of the doubt, it might have been stupid and thoughtless, but either way what a mess.
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 2, 2021 10:10:43 GMT -5
The question is how could they justify it in the first place unless they didnt regard the real presence...further it's not due to repentance but" science(as they see it)...further further my Parish is still dipping the spoon in grain alcohol as Of July1I was focused on the use of fire, but this also needs to be dealt with. The use of a chemical agent (grain alcohol) is also forbidden and is a sacrilege in the same manner as fire in disposing of the Blessed sacrament. Canon Mahoney explains in his answer as to how to properly dispose of a consecrated host, what is allowed and what is not:
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 2, 2021 22:49:39 GMT -5
The question is how could they justify it in the first place unless they didnt regard the real presence...further it's not due to repentance but" science(as they see it)...further further my Parish is still dipping the spoon in grain alcohol as Of July1 I agree, to give them the benefit of the doubt, it might have been stupid and thoughtless, but either way what a mess. What is there to doubt...you and I would never do such a thing. We perceive God...its obvious they do not. But I respect that we should try for charity...but in all honesty I just cant see them doing this unless at the very least they dont understand the real presence...and if that's the case can they confect the Host?
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 3, 2021 10:14:10 GMT -5
I agree, to give them the benefit of the doubt, it might have been stupid and thoughtless, but either way what a mess. What is there to doubt...you and I would never do such a thing. We perceive God...its obvious they do not. But I respect that we should try for charity...but in all honesty I just cant see them doing this unless at the very least they dont understand the real presence...and if that's the case can they confect the Host? I think you would agree that generally speaking the eastern Catholic priests are simple and theologically illiterate. I'm disgusted with this whole thing, but I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not knowingly doing something that is objectively sacrilegious. I know that in the parish I go to sometimes, that the priest has a very strong Faith and always professes that the bread and wine become truly Our Lord's Body and Blood. Yet, he adopted the wooden spoons idea and burnt them and in my opinion never put 2 and 2 together to figure out exactly what he was doing. I stopped going there the moment this idiocy started, and kept praying for him every day that he would stop doing this, and by God's Grace he did stop. On another note, my friend told me at his Ukrainian parish, in the same Eparchy as yours, that there is no more of this nonsense there, no burning of the wooden spoons, no alcohol, no masks. This tells me that things differ at the parish level depending on what each priest decides, it's not a binding policy from the bishop.
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 3, 2021 12:56:30 GMT -5
An objection has been made:
I quote the relevant part:
True, but the effect is the same. There can be no doubt that Our Lord's Sacred Blood is being burnt by fire, or being subjected to the chemical agent of grain alcohol. The motive is to kill the virus, but that still does not justify the practice. It is sacrilegious to use these methods even to protect people from the allegedly deadly virus.
Canon Mahoney only dealt with how to deal with a host, as he was writing to the Roman Rite of the Church where only the Host, not the Blood of Christ is administered. Secondly, the principe he was explaining clearly applies, as he explained the fire and chemical agents cannot be used on the Body (and Blood) of Christ. This principle should be self-evident when one understands the true nature of what Holy Communion really is and by that how it must be handled.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 4, 2021 17:39:30 GMT -5
Attended a Ruthenian DL today ( was at first saturday Latin Mass already yesterday) All was perfect and fine until distribution of the blessed sacrament...out came the wooden spoons...and after each communicant received..the spoonscwere literally tossed on to a separate tray with a common ( not a purifacator) cloth...like so much used picnic cutlery...yeah...didnt go up! grrrrrrrrrr
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 5, 2021 10:56:41 GMT -5
Attended a Ruthenian DL today ( was at first saturday Latin Mass already yesterday) All was perfect and fine until distribution of the blessed sacrament...out came the wooden spoons...and after each communicant received..the spoonscwere literally tossed on to a separate tray with a common ( not a purifacator) cloth...like so much used picnic cutlery...yeah...didnt go up! grrrrrrrrrr This is unfortunate. The Ruthenians have been more liberal than many other eastern rites, so this doesn't surprise me. If they are so worried about COVID, they could take up a collection and buy enough liturgical spoons so each communicant could use one proper spoon, then carefully place each spoon on a liturgical cloth or gold plate, then follow the rite as they would with the one spoon in normal times, but now it would be many. I realize this would be costly and time consuming for the priest but it is the only way that I can see around their dilemma. Since they are convinced that this virus is deadly and catchy and sacrilege can never be an option, this would work. The other, and in my opinion, better option is just to trust God, as I have never heard of even a single documented case of transmission of a contagion through the administration of Holy Communion. The Church has never answered this, I checked, but I think it at least a reasonable and pious belief that Our Lord would not permit this (contagion to spread in the administration of Holy Communion) to happen in the first place. The Roman rite has essentially the same problem. Romans don't use spoons, but the priest's fingers come right up to the communicant's mouth to place the Sacred Host on the tongue, and in theory, if a person had a contagious virus, they would be breathing and it would get on the priest's fingers, and potentially infect all others who receive after him. But, no one can ever point to a single case of this ever happening. One eastern rite church near me did not follow this practice and would not in any way change how communion was given and no one caught the virus, including the elderly priests who live there. SSPX, CMRI, and countless independent chapels also didn't bend in any way, and I have not seen any evidence of even a single case of anyone catching this virus at their chapels from the reception of Holy Communion.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 6, 2021 17:28:54 GMT -5
I may never return to the DL with these bishops in charge...even the Priests seem unbelieving in the real presence
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