|
Post by Pacelli on Feb 10, 2017 18:27:47 GMT -5
Erica, SGG is the acronym for St. Gertrude the Great mass center near Cincinnati, Ohio run by Bp. Dolan and Fr. Cekada and their small network of priests, and by extension, you could add Bp. Sanborn and his priests as they to some extent work together. Whether you decide to go to a Ukrainian rite regularly, it may not be a bad idea to just go from time to time, make a connection with the priest, learn the customs of the rite, so that if you lose your other situation, you will have a good place to fall back on. So who is Independent then? There are lots of them. They are priests unaffiliated with any group, who operate a chapel on their own. Sometimes they have loose associations with other independents so they can get another priest to cover when they need, but other than that, they are unassociated from any group. Most of them, if not all of the ones today, were once part of a group, but then went on their own for one reason or another.
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Feb 10, 2017 18:30:58 GMT -5
Pacelli - There is a Ruthenian Church in the area in which I live. I plan on going there to compare it to the Ukranians. Do you any info on the Ruthenian Church which you could share or post on the resource section? From my experience and others who have given me their opinion, the Ruthenians appear to be more liberal than the Ukrainians. I am not accusing any of their clerics of being heretics, but just be careful with them. You never know, though, maybe the priest near you is still a good Catholic, so it's worth checking out.
|
|
Deleted
Past Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 18:45:39 GMT -5
So who is Independent then? There are lots of them. They are priests unaffiliated with any group, who operate a chapel on their own. Sometimes they have loose associations with other independents so they can get another priest to cover when they need, but other than that, they are unassociated from any group. Most of them, if not all of the ones today, were once part of a group, but then went on their own for one reason or another. So, what makes them the number one option? Is it just because they are Independent, there is no goofiness (politics or disagreements, I guess) that come with a group? How are you assured of the clear line?
|
|
|
Post by Pacelli on Feb 10, 2017 19:59:09 GMT -5
There are lots of them. They are priests unaffiliated with any group, who operate a chapel on their own. Sometimes they have loose associations with other independents so they can get another priest to cover when they need, but other than that, they are unassociated from any group. Most of them, if not all of the ones today, were once part of a group, but then went on their own for one reason or another. So, what makes them the number one option? Is it just because they are Independent, there is no goofiness (politics or disagreements, I guess) that come with a group? How are you assured of the clear line? Some of them are excellent, others I wouldn't go to if it was the only mass I could get too. Without any oversight, just realize that if any of these priests has problems, there is no way to deal with it. One could say the same about the groups, that they have no lawful oversight, but at least with the groups they have their own internal governing structure, which protects laypeople to some extent. Some of the independents come through the +Lefebvre line so they are certainly safe, others that's have clear lines through the +Thuc lines of +Carmona, +Zamora, or +Guerard des Lauriers are most likely safe. Other +Thuc lines through the Palma de Troya group I would not have anything to do with. I would also have nothing to do with any bishops or priests derived from the Duarte-Costa line. Until the legitimate authorities of the Church judge the validity of these unapproved sacramental lines, we are on our own and must make our own judgments. You are under no obligation to go to any of these masses, so judge for yourself, based on the evidence available. I can give you my opinion, fwiw, but ultimately everyone has to make their own decisions. Sacramental validity is only one of the issues at play as to whether you should go to these independent chapels or the unauthorized groups, there are many considerations especially if you have children. I would strongly urge you to be careful and do your homework. If you go to an eastern rite Church, however, they use their own ancient and approved rites, so all of their bishops and priests are unquestionably valid. The only rare issue that comes up is if a "Novus Ordo" priest changes rite to an eastern rite, but that same scenario happens in the SSPX.
|
|
|
Post by Clotilde on Feb 11, 2017 13:43:21 GMT -5
My rule of thumb for independents is clear lines: Easy, short and from Abp. Lefebvre or easy, clear, well-known and short through Thuc. Sometimes there is an oddball situation, but I can't think of any right now.
Lastly, I check the priest out and make sure he isn't off his rocker. There are some out there that, even though they meet the above requirements, need to be avoided at all cost. Most chapel attendees will tell you a bit about the priest, often they don't see a problem with scandalous behavior so they will just tell you about it.
|
|
|
Post by kim on Feb 13, 2017 4:05:41 GMT -5
I have seen Eastern rite priests concelebrate Novus Ordo Masses with Novus Ordo priests. Does their presence make the Mass valid? I don't know.
Can you attend an Eastern rite parish and be upfront about your beliefs as a Sedevacantist?
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Feb 13, 2017 10:21:31 GMT -5
The invalidity of the NO is intrinsic imo...regardless of Priest...best not to be openly sede opinionist.
|
|
|
Post by Clotilde on Feb 13, 2017 12:55:27 GMT -5
I wouldn't even tell someone that I held the position if directly asked. It's not the time or the place. If you are going to mass/DL you are doing so because you need the sacraments not to convert people to your position or to have that discussion.
Actually, just thinking about doing that would make me feel rude, maybe because being rude can be a sin against charity or a sin of pride. It's hard to fight pride when you are right about sedevacantism and you meet someone "not right" about it.
|
|
Deleted
Past Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 14:34:44 GMT -5
I wouldn't even tell someone that I held the position if directly asked. It's not the time or the place. If you are going to mass/DL you are doing so because you need the sacraments not to convert people to your position or to have that discussion. Actually, just thinking about doing that would make me feel rude, maybe because being rude can be a sin against charity or a sin of pride. It's hard to fight pride when you are right about sedevacantism and you meet someone "not right" about it. You mean if someone asked you, "Do you think that Pope Francis is really the Pope," you would say, "Yes, I do?"
|
|
|
Post by Clotilde on Feb 13, 2017 16:53:26 GMT -5
I wouldn't even tell someone that I held the position if directly asked. It's not the time or the place. If you are going to mass/DL you are doing so because you need the sacraments not to convert people to your position or to have that discussion. Actually, just thinking about doing that would make me feel rude, maybe because being rude can be a sin against charity or a sin of pride. It's hard to fight pride when you are right about sedevacantism and you meet someone "not right" about it. You mean if someone asked you, "Do you think that Pope Francis is really the Pope," you would say, "Yes, I do?" Where am I? And who is asking? My answer depends on those two questions. If it is unwise or scandalous to give my opinion, I won't answer. People think they must answer every question put to them. You don't. I don't have to answer. I can also say that I do not wish to talk about that topic. Whatever prudence requires. Sedevacantism is not my religion. I am a Catholic. Now, if someone with good reason or authority said "Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God?" Directly to me, I would answer yes. There could also be situations where it would be best to remain silent as Our Lord did, when questioned.
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Feb 13, 2017 18:17:46 GMT -5
My answer to that direct question (again taking into account the context and time and place as clotide pointed out) My answer..."Oh I dont know...he sure doesnt act like one."
|
|
|
Post by Clotilde on Feb 13, 2017 18:33:28 GMT -5
My answer to that direct question (again taking into account the context and time and place as clotide pointed out) My answer..."Oh I dont know...he sure doesnt act like one." That's a good answer too! I'd give an answer like that so I could know where someone else stands.
|
|
|
Post by Clotilde on Jun 23, 2017 15:13:53 GMT -5
Bump, so people can participate and get to know the lay of the land.
|
|
MiriamM
TC spellcheck
TC quality control
Posts: 55
|
Post by MiriamM on Jul 26, 2017 10:23:40 GMT -5
Where I would be "willing" to attend conflicts with what my Spiritual Director will allow me to attend. ("Would you be willing" is not the same as "Will attend" -- two different questions there, one being hypothetical, the other being more decisive.).
I trust him, or he wouldn't be my Director.
I'm allowed to attend SSPX, diocesan, FSSP, ICKSP. I haven't asked him about SSPV. I am not allowed to attend SSPX Resistance Masses.
If I weren't under his direction I would include sede chapels if my only choice on an ongoing basis was Novus Ordo.
On an occasional basis, such as traveling and when no other option is available, I will cringe, pray my rosary during Mass while attending a Novus Ordo (offer it up) rather than "stay at home." Staying at home is never an option for my conscience. I consider it a direct and grave violation of the Third Commandment, and I have enough of a history with that, such that continuing to violate it would magnify repercussions to my soul. Been there, done that. Suffered and confessed.
|
|
|
Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 27, 2017 11:21:19 GMT -5
Where I would be "willing" to attend conflicts with what my Spiritual Director will allow me to attend. ("Would you be willing" is not the same as "Will attend" -- two different questions there, one being hypothetical, the other being more decisive.). I trust him, or he wouldn't be my Director. I'm allowed to attend SSPX, diocesan, FSSP, ICKSP. I haven't asked him about SSPV. I am not allowed to attend SSPX Resistance Masses. If I weren't under his direction I would include sede chapels if my only choice on an ongoing basis was Novus Ordo. On an occasional basis, such as traveling and when no other option is available, I will cringe, pray my rosary during Mass while attending a Novus Ordo (offer it up) rather than "stay at home." Staying at home is never an option for my conscience. I consider it a direct and grave violation of the Third Commandment, and I have enough of a history with that, such that continuing to violate it would magnify repercussions to my soul. Been there, done that. Suffered and confessed. Eastern rite?
|
|