Caillin
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 135
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Post by Caillin on May 13, 2019 12:57:57 GMT -5
What do you say to Catholics who don't believe truth can be found in books?
This is a new position that some family members of mine developed after being shown that all the catechisms, saints, theologians, etc. teach a doctrine that these people reject. They've now completely rebelled against theology, use of the intellect, and studying the faith in books, opting for some type of total-mysticism. They contend that learning from books leads to error and learning from prayer is the only way to learn truth. They only approve of spiritual reading and the lives of the saints. I'm not sure if they realize those books are books too. I have a lot of thoughts about this, which I will likely post later. Feel free to post your thoughts, relevant Catholic information, or what you would say to someone like this. My initial question would be, "where did you learn that you can't find truth in books?"
This response to a cook-out invitation summarizes their position:
This message was sent to someone else, but had it been sent to me, I would have responded, "Is there truth in your text message?"
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on May 13, 2019 14:01:00 GMT -5
"Where did you get the idea that you need to pray?"
"Where did you hear that the saints prayed?"
"Where did you get the idea you need to sacrifice?"
"What is our purpose here on earth?" "Where did you learn that, why do you think that?"
I think our purpose is to know, love and serve God hear on earth to be happy with Him forever in heaven. The best way to know God is to read His Word and writings of people that the Church says are now with Him in heaven. Don't trust your own inspirations when praying because it could very well be the devil whispering or inspiring your thoughts. Trust a saint's prayers or the approved teachings of the Church.
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Post by Clotilde on May 13, 2019 22:24:47 GMT -5
I have had a similar experience from someone who denies that there are moral theology texts that can guide us in morals. The person you are dealing with seems to have a higher level of intelligence than my individual. I would probably guess that accepting truths from books could have unpleasant consequences for them. They may be so proud that these truths sting them in their ignorance.
Learning through prayer and sacrifice sounds sanctimonious and falsely humble. True humility would admit that there is much to learn from those who have authority to teach, as in the men who wrote such books. Or at least the admission that one is unable to comprehend the truths contained therein through deficient education or low intelligence. I don't mean that as a slight, but some people cannot absorb these things and that makes them suspicious or turns them off to books.
If you are dealing with someone completely or partially ruled by the heart and not the head, as my individual above, you may try to take a slower, more indirect approach. Still, some things are impossible to explain to such people and you have to leave them to God's grace.
Also, I read this as "I can't come to your cookout because I'm going to run my mouth about topics which I am ignorant and I don't want you to correct me" so maybe it is better they stay home until they can learn to be a gracious guest.
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Caillin
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 135
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Post by Caillin on May 14, 2019 12:42:37 GMT -5
... Also, I read this as "I can't come to your cookout because I'm going to run my mouth about topics which I am ignorant and I don't want you to correct me" so maybe it is better they stay home until they can learn to be a gracious guest. It's actually another new belief they've developed collectively (several families). They say they would be sinning if they are around someone they believe needs to be corrected, and they don't attempt to correct them. Their only options, according to them, would be to attempt to correct that person or avoid them.
This had consequences at an Easter family get-together. The family of the text message in the first post didn't show up, but other families with the same beliefs did, and proceeded to try to "set straight" people they disagreed with on the "real issue". When they were told it wasn't the time or place for it, they said they would be sinning if they came without trying to correct people, and that their only other option would be to stay home. They ended up going home.
It's a distorted view of fraternal correction, filled with a lot of absurdities and inconsistency. I would guess that Titus 3:10 is part of their reasoning, though I haven't heard that they've invoked that verse to support their belief.
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Post by Clotilde on May 14, 2019 13:47:30 GMT -5
... Also, I read this as "I can't come to your cookout because I'm going to run my mouth about topics which I am ignorant and I don't want you to correct me" so maybe it is better they stay home until they can learn to be a gracious guest. It's actually another new belief they've developed collectively (several families). They say they would be sinning if they are around someone they believe needs to be corrected, and they don't attempt to correct them. Their only options, according to them, would be to attempt to correct that person or avoid them.
This had consequences at an Easter family get-together. The family of the text message in the first post didn't show up, but other families with the same beliefs did, and proceeded to try to "set straight" people they disagreed with on the "real issue". When they were told it wasn't the time or place for it, they said they would be sinning if they came without trying to correct people, and that their only other option would be to stay home. They ended up going home.
It's a distorted view of fraternal correction, filled with a lot of absurdities and inconsistency. I would guess that Titus 3:10 is part of their reasoning, though I haven't heard that they've invoked that verse to support their belief.
That's absolutely absurd. I know you may not have a ton of options but you are probably better off surrounding yourself with good-willed people. I will never know why people can't just get together and have a nice time. It is so much more edifying and pleasant to be a good guest or host. Unfortunately, no amount of proof is good enough for this attitude. Now I'm wondering what spiritual writers would say is the remedy for such people.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on May 14, 2019 14:12:10 GMT -5
Sounds to me like you're dealing with a narcissistic individual and their cadre of flying monkeys.
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Post by Pacelli on May 14, 2019 14:19:43 GMT -5
It is the height of arrogance to say one needn’t learn from “books.” It’s as though these books on matters of Faith and morals published with the express approval of the living pastors of the Church were just published for fun, with no purpose to teach Catholics anything about their Faith.
Its an interesting thought that if someone in our time were to toss out all of their books, and reject anything they were taught by books they read or were instructed by, would they believe anything at all about the Catholic Faith? If so, who taught them? I’m sure it was not their authorized living pastors, the Pope, the local bishop, or the priests sent by him.
This is just another sad fruit of an ungoverned Church. There is no authority to deal with people like this who cause discord and spread error in the Church. In normal times, our duty would be to report such trouble to our local pastor, or in more serious cases to the local ordinary, but who can we go to now? The troublemakers, or should we say” wolves” are devouring the sheep, and there is no one to authoritatively stop them. We as the laity can do what we can and show them approved texts that point out their error, or post resources on forums such as this, but for those unwilling to hear the Church, through its approved writings, the problem is in their will, not the intellect. Our efforts will only help those of good will, not the wolves or those who have been willfully duped by them.
It’s a sad thing to watch as Catholics are splitting off just like Protestants do in their sects. Each person or group can just self-interpret (or reject) texts, whether it’s the Bible or in our case, the Councils of the Church, the teaching of the Popes, the approved Catechisms, the writings of the Fathers and Doctors, or the approved theologians. “You read and you decide what it means,” is the new motto for many.
Catholics are splitting off and cutting themselves off from each other. In many cases, they are severing communion from other Catholics, causing countless schisms. It seems that many are also hardening in their error and schism, and becoming obstinate to any form of correction. Let us hope that when the dust settles on this crisis and we have living rulers again in the Church that such people will submit to them.
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Post by RitaMarita on May 15, 2019 8:23:14 GMT -5
When I first became a traditional Catholic I wanted to share the truth with everyone and announce it from the rooftops. Yet, eventually I came to see that most people are not open to hearing the truth because to acknowledge their previous beliefs might be wrong requires too much humility. So, I try to just be a good Catholic and answer questions when asked about tge Faith as that seems to do more good than trying to tell people about it who are not open to hearing the truth.
It isn't always easy especially with one's family...but we keep praying and hoping for the best. My family actually came to Alexander's Baptism! Several years ago I could not even have imagined that happening. God is good and there is always hope when we trust in Him! 😊😇
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Post by Clotilde on May 15, 2019 12:24:28 GMT -5
When I first became a traditional Catholic I wanted to share the truth with everyone and announce it from the rooftops. Yet, eventually I came to see that most people are not open to hearing the truth because to acknowledge their previous beliefs might be wrong requires too much humility. So, I try to just be a good Catholic and answer questions when asked about tge Faith as that seems to do more good than trying to tell people about it who are not open to hearing the truth. It isn't always easy especially with one's family...but we keep praying and hoping for the best. My family actually came to Alexander's Baptism! Several years ago I could not even have imagined that happening. God is good and there is always hope when we trust in Him! 😊😇 I've found time to be a good helper. It allows tempers to cool and for people to reflect on what's truly important and sort out what doesn't really matter. I totally agree with your methods above and relate to your experience! I just try to live my life in a way that represents the Catholics Faith with all of its joy and peace.
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Post by RitaMarita on May 17, 2019 6:26:41 GMT -5
When I first became a traditional Catholic I wanted to share the truth with everyone and announce it from the rooftops. Yet, eventually I came to see that most people are not open to hearing the truth because to acknowledge their previous beliefs might be wrong requires too much humility. So, I try to just be a good Catholic and answer questions when asked about tge Faith as that seems to do more good than trying to tell people about it who are not open to hearing the truth. It isn't always easy especially with one's family...but we keep praying and hoping for the best. My family actually came to Alexander's Baptism! Several years ago I could not even have imagined that happening. God is good and there is always hope when we trust in Him! 😊😇 I've found time to be a good helper. It allows tempers to cool and for people to reflect on what's truly important and sort out what doesn't really matter. I totally agree with your methods above and relate to your experience! I just try to live my life in a way that represents the Catholics Faith with all of its joy and peace. So true... Good examples work the most conversions. 😊
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