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Post by Clotilde on Jan 17, 2019 14:35:57 GMT -5
First of all, if you cite a certain chart that came about about who should marry whom, you get -10 points.
I was in a recent discussion where courtship and dating came up with regard to the state of the Church and the Crisis.
Obviously, there are different stages leading up to marriage. I think of dating as something that might usually be skipped or maybe done in a group where people might see what others are like and determine if it might be worth getting to know a person better. Whereas courtship is more formal, even if it isn't an actual formal step but it has the end that marriage will likely result.
Alright, that is somewhat settled. You are a Catholic, holding the sedevacantist position or at least you recognize something is wrong in the Church and you do things differently than most of the population, like having morals, or not attending the Novus Ordo, for example. You are also actively looking for a spouse.
My question is when and how much do you tell a person about your "crisis stance" during any of the above stages leading up to marriage, including engagement or betrothal? Assume that this person could be anyone, not necessarily a Catholic but at least a naturally good person. The "trad" Catholic pool really isn't that big so many have to look elsewhere, or maybe God leads them there.
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Post by mithrandylan on Jan 17, 2019 20:11:07 GMT -5
I feel like there's an important word missing... the question strikes me as unintelligible! Tell a person [what]?
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 18, 2019 2:25:27 GMT -5
It seems as though another way of thinking of this topic is whether the crisis had gotten so bad and gone on for so long that there are now de facto mixed marriages among Catholic couples.
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 18, 2019 15:05:06 GMT -5
Good Catholic boys in 1950 looking for a wife would have looked for a Catholic with piety, love for the mass and Our Lady, a good mother for their children, a good homemaker, etc.
Good Catholic girls in 1950 looking for a husband would have looked for a Catholic with piety, love for the mass and Our Lady, a family man, loyalty to his wife, willing to work a job and provide, a good dad for the kids, etc.
How far we have come today where this is no longer enough for many young people searching for a spouse. Today, it’s about complex theology and particular positions taken, which chapels you attend, whether you are non-una cum, whether one is a sedevacantist, resistance, SSPX, Casssicuacum holder, SSPV, Gertrudian, Sanbornite, CMRI, FSSP, conservative NO, home-aloner, etc,
It is a sad mess, and I feel very bad for young people who may now find it very difficult to find a spouse, with all these sharp divisions among those who profess the one true Faith.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 18, 2019 17:57:59 GMT -5
People are blind to the divisiveness in the Trad world...I’ve just gotten lambasted on FB for the last couple of days for calling out messers Cekada and Dolan on this account. Finding a mate is a whole new level I hadn’t thought of
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 20, 2019 14:23:38 GMT -5
The fruits of the decisions made by those who reacted to the crisis in the mid to late 1970s and 80s are showing themselves more clearly as time goes on. The unity of the Church is being fractured by having multiple groups and theological reactions to this crisis that go along with a particular group. I also believe that God never left us abandoned without any lawful and canonical parishes on earth, it’s just that in the heat of the moment in the 70’s no one thought this through very well.
I have the belief that even though good came from the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre and the others, that harm came from it as well, and as you rightly say Voxx, that aspect is being ignored by many. The Church is not supposed to have uncommissioned and ungoverned bishops overseeing private groups, and roaming throughout the world doing as they will.
The problems it has created and will create are not always immediately obvious, and this thread illustrates one of them.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 20, 2019 14:53:53 GMT -5
So consider this a good young woman from a good solid Catholic Byzantine Family meets a good young man from a NON Una cum independant Trad Catholic family. Hilarity ensues...NOT!
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Post by Pacelli on Jan 20, 2019 15:54:02 GMT -5
So consider this a good young woman from a good solid Catholic Byzantine Family meets a good young man from a NON Una cum independant Trad Catholic family. Hilarity ensues...NOT! I think the NUC probably wouldn’t marry her unless she agreed to only go to sede chapels. What a shame if they were a good match in every other respect.
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Post by Clotilde on Jan 20, 2019 15:59:33 GMT -5
So consider this a good young woman from a good solid Catholic Byzantine Family meets a good young man from a NON Una cum independant Trad Catholic family. Hilarity ensues...NOT! I would love for one of my kids to marry into a Byzantine family. NUC is the only one I've advised them to steer away from. Too much of a risk of alienated or cut off from the sacraments, their family, or other Catholics.
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Jan 21, 2019 16:57:51 GMT -5
It seems it would come up pretty early on if young people pray before they eat or take out their Rosary. Anyone would notice these acts of piety and would ask questions. A truly interested party would want some questions and if you have well thought out, logical answers one out of maybe 200 will agree with you. Most won't be interested in having to go to church or pray everyday, wear skirts or whatnot and so would not be interested in the daughter or son. Sadly in a lot of cases your daughter or son will give in to the other person...
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Post by RitaMarita on Jan 24, 2019 10:02:49 GMT -5
Even though my parents are novus ordo, they were very conservative. So, it was always explained to me that the differences between "dating" and "courting" were that:
Dating meant: Spending time alone with someone of the opposite sex for the purpose of enjoying their company without necessarily having an intention of marriage.
Courting meant: Spending time in public place or a safe family home environment with someone of the opposite sex for the purpose of determining whether they would possibly be a good match as a future spouse.
As to there being a citation to quote about "Whom One Ought to Marry", I like Father Faber's Catholic Girl's Guide or Young Catholic Man's Guide. In this book (at least the former) there is a section "Whom ought I to marry". It goes into depth about the qualities and aspects that a person should look for in a prospective husband/wife. This book was what helped to guide me in the decision of how to go about courtship and do it safely. I definitely think that all young men and women should be given a copy of this book when they come of age as it really can make a huge difference on how they think of and approach marriage.
As for meeting people now-a-days and determining how open to be about one's religious beliefs. From my experience, honesty is the essential beginning of any good traditional courtship. I have found that being open about what I believe has always helped to turn away those who might not have been right for me. I have known many couple who were not frank about their religious views until after marriage and many of them witnessed their spouse afterwards turn against them. I even know 2 separate families who had over 9 children each who had this happen. Very sad...
When I first corresponded with my husband, I thought he was a traditional Catholic but eventually found out that though he liked the idea that he had never acted upon his inclinations to accept the fullness of the faith. I was super frank with him and told him that though I liked and respected him that since he was not a traditional Catholic I would not consider entering into a courtship with him. We ended our correspondence at that time, yet several months later he contacted me to say that my words had been deeply impressed upon his mind and that he had decided to commit to being a traditional Catholic. Within a few months he was conditionally baptized and confirmed by a CMRI priest out west and amazed me by his zealousness and sincerity in trying to become the best traditional Catholic that he could. He conversed often with his confessor and in a short time made me feel guilty as though he had greatly exceeded me in the Faith I had been raised in. Before long he began to inspire me to be a better Catholic, helped me to start praying the daily rosary (which I had become negligent about) and around that time I agreed to enter into a courtship with him.
I can't begin to explain how grateful I am to God that He gave me the courage to remain firm about putting the Faith first. My husband is more concentrated on growing in virtue than spending time in religious political debates, and all my traditional Catholic friends (and even my novus ordo family) love him dearly. There is no religious matter that my husband and I disagree about and though trials and crosses do come up some times, we always seem to be able to work through them together through the grace of God. I never imagined that God would give me a spouse to whom I could look up to so much, but that is the funny thing. When you do your best to follow God's laws and will, He often pleasantly surprises you. It reminds me of the verse from the Bible, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God...and all these things shall be added unto you."
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Greg
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by Greg on Jan 24, 2019 20:52:52 GMT -5
I am KungFu, so I am very Zen about most of the various positions. SV, I can dig that. The last 6 Popes have been cardboard cut outs anyway. I haven't really considered then proper Popes any more than I consider American processed cheese to be real cheese. ED masses, because they are 30 minutes not 3 hours away, fine. Baptism of desire, why do I care? I am baptised.
Women in pants....yawn.....moonlandings happened, earth is round, orbits the sun, homeopathy is bullshit and yes I will eat that whole packet of bacon and I don't care if I get cancer in 20 years.
That is why I married a Russian
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jan 25, 2019 23:28:22 GMT -5
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Greg
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by Greg on Jan 26, 2019 18:34:21 GMT -5
A TLM said with the approval of the mainstream church,
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