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Post by scholasticism on Nov 28, 2018 13:11:16 GMT -5
Thank you for this list;(tradcath.proboards.com/thread/1436/where-eastern-rites-world) this was pretty much what I was asking for (except, aren't there also some very few Rites in the West, Milan, Toledo, Ambrosian...?) There do seem to be some odd anomalies in this list, most notable being the Belarusian Church with about 10,000 members but "(No established hierarchy at present)" - I wonder what those 10,000 people do on Sundays - home alone?
Didn't the Maronite Church follow the Latin Rite, even using the Tridentine Latin Rite Mass (and then the Novus Ordo when the Latin Rite went Novus Ordo)? Are any Maronite clergy known to use the Tridentine Mass or any other authentic ancient liturgy?
Which Rite was it for which an "anaphora" (I think that's the term for Canon of the Mass, or in Novus Ordo terms the "eucharistic prayer") which altogether lacks any part of the form of the consecration? Are any clergy of that Rite, whatever it is, known to use a previous anaphora which preserves the valid form of the consecration?
The area covered in this list is admittedly large, but even so many vast portions of the inhabited world remain which are not under the jurisdiction of any of these Rites: Many island nations, such as Japan, New Zealand, Philippines, Indonesia, Madagascar, Papua New Guinea, Sri Lanka, Fiji, and a great many other such smaller nations; the entire list of Central American nations, such as Honduras, Guatemala, Benin, Costa Rica, etc.; All but three countries in South America (only Argentina, Venezuela, and Brazil covered), such as Columbia, Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Peru, etc.; All but three countries in Africa (only Egypt, the Sudan, and Ethiopia covered), such as Libya, Nigeria, Chad, Mali, Kenya, Angola, etc.; Southeast Asia, such as Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Burma, Malaysia, Thailand, etc.; also various and scattered other places, such as Spain, Portugal, Korea (North and South), Bhutan, Nepal, Antarctica, and the International Waters.
And if the Maronite has no authentic Catholic Liturgy-saying clergy, and thus would be properly categorized as extinct, we must also add Cyprus and Mexico to that list. The same could go for any uniquely covered lands by whichever that invalid anaphora-using Rite happens to be.
Now, to be fair, on the other hand, some few of these places might get picked up if we add whatever few non-Latin non-Eastern Rites there are. Then, of the Russian Church there appear to be 15 "parishes and communities" which are not in Russia (since 5 of the 20 total are IN Russia), and I suppose a few of these could exist in one or another of these listed groups of nations. Finally, the Armenian Church lists "Latin America" as one of its regions but it is not clear precisely what countries that would actually extend to in actuality/practice.
Even granting the most generous region-listing however, there just remains far too much of the inhabited earth which simply is not at all covered by any of the non-Latin Rites. Ergo, the problem of Catholicity remains.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 29, 2018 13:25:55 GMT -5
The Maronites are well known for innovating in their liturgy, but as of this juncture, I do not see a “Novus Ordo” of their rite. The principles critiquing the rite of Paul VI explained in the Ottaviani intervention would not apply to the Maronite rite, at least in my opinion. I can tell you this though, I went to observe them many years ago at a nearby parish, and they were singing well known Novus Ordo songs, the sermon was liberal, and overall the place had the spirit and stench of the Novus Ordo. That was my first and last time going there. I have a friend, however, who goes to the Maronites who has told me that the priest has the Faith and the liturgy is very faithful in all ways except the innovations to the rite itself, (mass facing the people, and other changes), so there may be pockets of faithful Maronites out there. The Maronites, like some other eastern rites have in some ways tried to imitate some aspects of the Novus Ordo: mass facing the people, the use of altar girls, women not covering their heads, churches that look bland and protestant, etc. You can read the text of their rite HERE
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 29, 2018 13:52:21 GMT -5
I believe you are referring to the Nestorian sect with whom John Paul II negotiated with in the 1990’s. There is no eastern Catholic rite that lacks the canon.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 29, 2018 17:26:46 GMT -5
I will answer your point on Catholicity in the dedicated thread on that to keep this discussion organized. We are covering a lot of ground.
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Post by wenceslav on Nov 29, 2018 17:42:11 GMT -5
I come from a Slovak Greek Catholic Church background. The last straw came for me in the late 1990s when the head of our Church, Mons. Jan Hirka (Bishop of Presov, Slovakia) mandated the change “from many” to “for all” in the words of Institution - a blatant attempt to emulate the Novus Ordo. This was later changed back in the late ~2000s after BXVI changed it back in the Novus Ordo. Our last Bishop here in Toronto, Canada, Bp. Pazak (now Bishop of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix) was an extreme liberal and promoted interfaith services with the Protestants and “Orthodox” especially during “Unity” week in the latter half of January.
One thing I have noticed is that most priests in the Slovak Greek Catholic Church in Canada or Slovakia do not have an aversion against the NO “mass” and readily concelebrate the NO Liturgy. This is true of the of the Ukrainian Catholics in Mukachevo as well. For that matter, this is also true of Archbishop Shevchuk of the UGCC who has concelebrated the NO multiple times in Roman churches as well as in his own Cathedral in Kiev. This does not prove that such clerics are heretics but it is certainly a point of concern. Hence my personal preference for Traditional Catholic venues (i.e. SSPX or CMRI), IMO.
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Post by mithrandylan on Nov 29, 2018 22:10:46 GMT -5
Which Rite was it for which an "anaphora" (I think that's the term for Canon of the Mass, or in Novus Ordo terms the "eucharistic prayer") which altogether lacks any part of the form of the consecration? Iirc, that's the liturgy of Addai and Mari. It's not a liturgy used by Catholics (nominal or otherwise) and has always only been a liturgy in use by Oriental schismatics. Exactly whom, I'm unsure. JP2 said some goofy things about it, apparently calling it valid even though, as you point out, it is literally missing a consecration.
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Post by wenceslav on Nov 29, 2018 22:48:11 GMT -5
Which Rite was it for which an "anaphora" (I think that's the term for Canon of the Mass, or in Novus Ordo terms the "eucharistic prayer") which altogether lacks any part of the form of the consecration? Iirc, that's the liturgy of Addai and Mari. It's not a liturgy used by Catholics (nominal or otherwise) and has always only been a liturgy in use by Oriental schismatics. Exactly whom, I'm unsure. JP2 said some goofy things about it, apparently calling it valid even though, as you point out, it is literally missing a consecration. Hi Mith, I believe it’s the Assyrian Church of the East. It’s Catholic counterpart is the Chaldean Catholic Church (whose Liturgy always possessed a Consecration). It is truly a scandal in addition to the subsequent promotion (by the Vatican) of “Eucharistic sharing” between the Chaldeans and Assyrians.
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Post by Pacelli on Nov 30, 2018 13:09:53 GMT -5
Wenceslav wrote:
I agree it doesn’t settle whether they are heretics, but it is enough to suspect them.
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Past Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2022 22:52:44 GMT -5
So we have both the Ukranian and Melkite rites in my country. The latter were "given jurisdiction" in by JPII. The information about the Ukranian rite priest available is very limited. What sort of questions should one be asking when looking into such rites?
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Post by Didymus on Mar 3, 2023 18:46:59 GMT -5
So we have both the Ukranian and Melkite rites in my country. The latter were "given jurisdiction" in by JPII. The information about the Ukranian rite priest available is very limited. What sort of questions should one be asking when looking into such rites? I would also like to know
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 6, 2023 8:33:44 GMT -5
So we have both the Ukranian and Melkite rites in my country. The latter were "given jurisdiction" in by JPII. The information about the Ukranian rite priest available is very limited. What sort of questions should one be asking when looking into such rites? I would also like to know The most important question for starters is to be certain of the preist's Holy Orders. If he's a doubtful priest, the there is no need to look into anything else. If the man is indeed a validly ordained priest, the next question is to be certain that he is a Catholic. Has he kept the Faith or is a heretic, a modernist or a danger to Catholics. That much should be obvious to ascertain if you observe him for a while. We aren't living in the times of Pius XII, when modernists hid their true beliefs. The modernists of today, are proud of their beliefs and have no problem professing it and demonstrating it for all to see. Even if you cannot form moral certainty that the priest is a heretic, if he is showing clear signs that he is possibly a heretic, or committing crimes that would lead to a suspicion of heresy, or he is introducing novelties into the rites of the Church, then obviously that would not be a good place to go to mass.
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