Caillin
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 136
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Post by Caillin on Mar 17, 2018 7:29:05 GMT -5
Can anyone provide any details on who ordained Neal Webster, and the extent of the lineage? I know he was consecrated by Bp. Slupski, and from what I've heard from a reliable source, it seems there is sufficient evidence that that was done validly (if Webster was a priest). But the only thing I know about his priestly ordination is that it was either done by a Palmarian, or the lineage traces back to Palmarians. I know he is a Feeneyite, but I know people that share in his Feeneyism and they're looking to him for sacraments. I'd like to know whether his validity can be sufficiently established.
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 17, 2018 8:06:37 GMT -5
Can anyone provide any details on who ordained Neal Webster, and the extent of the lineage? I know he was consecrated by Bp. Slupski, and from what I've heard from a reliable source, it seems there is sufficient evidence that that was done validly (if Webster was a priest). But the only thing I know about his priestly ordination is that it was either done by a Palmarian, or the lineage traces back to Palmarians. I know he is a Feeneyite, but I know people that share in his Feeneyism and they're looking to him for sacraments. I'd like to know whether his validity can be sufficiently established. I’m not sure, but someone on THIS old CI thread said that Henneberry ordained him. Henneberry was ordained by Carmona, and consecrated a Bishop by Terrasson, who was a Palmarian bishop.
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Post by Clotilde on Mar 18, 2018 0:06:26 GMT -5
Another link from CI that documents the lines of Webster.
link
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Post by Clotilde on Mar 18, 2018 0:34:32 GMT -5
I apologize, I am having trouble with formatting.
The biggest concern I see with the lines, is that I am not sure Gomez always ordained in the Roman rite. I don't know if he did that before his papal claim but my understanding was that he tampered with rites at some point.
The second point which doesnt have to do with validity was the absolutely deplorable moral character of Gomez. I'm not saying Gomez tainted everyone who had anything to do with him by association, but it is a cause for concern when considering the character of some of these men.
From my reading, it seems possible that Webster is validly ordained, but for my part, without regard for other factors, I would need much more evidence before approaching him for the sacraments. I would not call for him on my deathbed if it came down to that.
Considering other factors, Webster seems to have been around Trad Town for quite some time. I don't have much more time to devote to him at present but what was he doing all of this time? What are his qualifications to be ordained? Consecrated a bishop? His education? I know others are in a similar boat, but the fact that he has latched on to Feeneyism does not do much for his case.
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Post by Clotilde on Mar 18, 2018 1:01:28 GMT -5
This isn't about Webster but the comments and post give some sort of background about Terrasson, so that we might piece together what happened in this lineage: link
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 18, 2018 8:38:38 GMT -5
This is another testimonial, from the link Clotilde posted, from a man who says he looked into Neal Webster:
Poster “Thomas More” wrote
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Caillin
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 136
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Post by Caillin on Mar 18, 2018 23:10:28 GMT -5
Here is what I've pieced together (going backwards chronologically) from the few internet sources available:
What's interesting is that Terrasson was apparently ordained by Laborie a little more than 2 years prior to Laborie being conditionally consecrated by Thuc. If this is the case, Terrasson would have been ordained by a man who's actions the following year imply that he thought his own orders were doubtful at the time he ordained Terrasson. Even with setting that aside, the whole lineage is a mess.
ETA: Added Terrasson's 12/23/74 ordination date by Jean Laborie, and edited last paragraph accordingly ETA: I just reread Pacelli's post and saw that Clemente ordained and consecrated Terrason in 1976, so that makes a big difference
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Post by Clotilde on Mar 19, 2018 14:33:03 GMT -5
Good catch, Caillin.
I am not saying the traditionalist formations and trainings are not without fault but these men that appear out of almost nowhere, acting as priests need some scrutiny as to their training and how their time was spent. Unfortunately, it is very easy to fake "seminary" training these days. I'd want a third party to verify some of these facts before I would even consider involving myself with such an individual.
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Caillin
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 136
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Post by Caillin on Mar 19, 2018 20:36:49 GMT -5
I made a significant correction to my post with the lineage based on what Pacelli said in his post, which I initially overlooked. It's strange that Terrence Boyle lists Terrasson's ordination being by Jean Laborie, instead of Clemente, if Terrasson was conditionally ordained by Clemente. But maybe it's something Boyle just wasn't aware of.
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 19, 2018 20:41:30 GMT -5
I made a significant correction to my post with the lineage based on what Pacelli said in his post, which I initially overlooked. It's strange that Terrence Boyle lists Terrasson's ordination being by Jean Laborie, instead of Clemente, if Terrasson was conditionally ordained by Clemente. But maybe it's something Boyle just wasn't aware of. Caillin, it’s hard to say which source is the correct one. This is one of the problems with all of this, it’s tough to trace all this, to find out about these guys. It’s very possible Boyle might have been right, it really all depends on on what he was relying on as his source.
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Post by Clotilde on Mar 19, 2018 21:00:43 GMT -5
He could have possibly been ordained by both, one or both conditionally as well. We have no idea if he was ordained by anyone else in another sect before that, either--unless someone knows for sure that has some sort of testimony.
The favorite term of these dudes is "sub conditione" and whenever they get together their hobby is to conditionally ordain and consecrate one another. I've seen cases where they've exchanged conditional consecrations pretty much in the same sitting. (I've been studying these guys since 2001, so don't ask me to recall names, please)
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Caillin
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 136
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Post by Caillin on Mar 19, 2018 21:03:10 GMT -5
I made a significant correction to my post with the lineage based on what Pacelli said in his post, which I initially overlooked. It's strange that Terrence Boyle lists Terrasson's ordination being by Jean Laborie, instead of Clemente, if Terrasson was conditionally ordained by Clemente. But maybe it's something Boyle just wasn't aware of. Caillin, it’s hard to say which source is the correct one. This is one of the problems with all of this, it’s tough to trace all this, to find out about these guys. It’s very possible Boyle might have been right, it really all depends on on what he was relying on as his source. Right. I'm just trying to collect as much information as possible. I want to make sure any of my comments to the people seeking sacraments from Webster are as informed as possible.
I found this article by a Fr. Anthony Chadwick, who says he was ordained by Terrasson. You would think he would be more precise about his own lineage, than a random poster on Cath Info that isn't from that lineage.
Anthony Chadwick:
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 26, 2018 20:07:35 GMT -5
I found this post today, which gives a quote from a 1982 Angelus article, and if it is true, the implications will be huge:
CI poster Ranlare wrote:
I am working on verifying this this quote.
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Caillin
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 136
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Post by Caillin on Mar 26, 2018 21:05:29 GMT -5
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 26, 2018 21:33:02 GMT -5
Thank you Caillin. This statement is very serious, and in my opinion raises issues beyond the Palma de Troya consecrations. There is now no doubt that the Angelus quote is accurate, the next step would be to obtain the letter from Thuc where he made this assertion, in order to verify it.
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