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Post by Voxxkowalski on Mar 26, 2018 20:46:11 GMT -5
A telephone interview with an early traditionalist friend of mine, who describes what it was like when the Crisis in the Church hit everyday Catholics. Audio quality...not the best. I think I had a wrong mic setting. Anyway its not intolerable and an excellent trip through the past (btw this man Phillip was the man who brought me back to my Catholic sensus...if you appreciate this forum you have this man to thank as well) Enjoy!
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Post by wenceslav on Mar 28, 2018 10:15:12 GMT -5
Hi Vox,
Extremely interesting podcast. Please thank your friend for us, on behalf of the members of this forum. I was just curious - he mentioned his contact with the priestly members of the ORCM i.e. Fr. Mroz, Fr. McKenna etc. Did he continue contacts with them after settling down at the Byzantine/ Ukrainian Church? My family knew Fr. Mroz very well since his home was in Buffalo NY as well as Fr. Roy Randolph who later helped out the SSPV before his death. All very interesting, I could’t stop listening last night after hearing all those familiar names.
I do know from our own “Old timers” here that in some parishes they already had the Latin Mass versus populum in limited parishes as early as ~1954. But generally they got rid of the old altar (or set up a table) by about 1964.
In Eastern Europe i.e. former Czechoslovakia the New “Mass” didn’t start in many rural parishes until 1978 with the election of JP2. And because of the laity’s reverence for the Altar, many parishes literally cut the altar away from the wall and made it into a Novus Ordo table. That was the case (main altar) for example in the Church of Our Lady of Victory in Prague where the statue of the Infant of Prague is housed. To this day they serve the Novus Ordo on the side altar with the statue of the Infant with the priest having his back to the people.
Again thank you very much. Maybe you’ll do a Part 2 with Phillip starting with his attendance at the local Ukrainian Catholic Church. It would be interesting to hear his impressions about changes (if any) over the years in the Ukrainian Church.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Mar 28, 2018 14:07:20 GMT -5
Hi Vox, Extremely interesting podcast. Please thank your friend for us, on behalf of the members of this forum. I was just curious - he mentioned his contact with the priestly members of the ORCM i.e. Fr. Mroz, Fr. McKenna etc. Did he continue contacts with them after settling down at the Byzantine/ Ukrainian Church? My family knew Fr. Mroz very well since his home was in Buffalo NY as well as Fr. Roy Randolph who later helped out the SSPV before his death. All very interesting, I could’t stop listening last night after hearing all those familiar names. I do know from our own “Old timers” here that in some parishes they already had the Latin Mass versus populum in limited parishes as early as ~1954. But generally they got rid of the old altar (or set up a table) by about 1964. In Eastern Europe i.e. former Czechoslovakia the New “Mass” didn’t start in many rural parishes until 1978 with the election of JP2. And because of the laity’s reverence for the Altar, many parishes literally cut the altar away from the wall and made it into a Novus Ordo table. That was the case (main altar) for example in the Church of Our Lady of Victory in Prague where the statue of the Infant of Prague is housed. To this day they serve the Novus Ordo on the side altar with the statue of the Infant with the priest having his back to the people. Again thank you very much. Maybe you’ll do a Part 2 with Phillip starting with his attendance at the local Ukrainian Catholic Church. It would be interesting to hear his impressions about changes (if any) over the years in the Ukrainian Church. We were just discussing that but mostly about the Ruthenians and the Changes kissing up to the ducks. I plan on having several discussions with my friend. I may even debate him about the sede issue (he's a RR but not dogmatically) He has always entertained and educated me over the many years weve known each other. He is a real Catholic Treasure...a Monument to peasant Catholics everywhere like myself. I am glad you enjoyed it...I think ol beezlebub was trying to cause it to fail because I had some very unusual technical glitches with this interview.
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 28, 2018 19:51:21 GMT -5
Thank you Joe and Phillip, it was very nice to hear this talk. I only wish that there could be more collection of personal testimonies of those who saw the real Catholic Church, lived through the 60’s and are able to contrast the two, and discuss how the new religion was implemented even in the face of faithful bishops, priests and laity.
One key point that I hope people do not miss in your testimony, is that the priests themselves were in many cases duped. Many of these men were not believing heresy or in any way trying to separate themselves from the Church, they were victims of this great crime. I would also say that the same goes for many bishops as well. The clergy, like the laity, were taken off guard, and did not know what to do, so they continued to trust that their bishop and ultimately the Pope would not lead them astray.
Its good to hear that you found a safe refuge in the Ukrainian rite, there are still, even today in 2018, many priests who are good. I think the Eastern rites, their bishops, priests and laity, are essentially frozen in the equivalent of the “Roman Rite 1960’s.” Some of them embrace heresy, some liberal but not heretics, others completely faithful to the teaching of the Church, and many just ignorant and clueless of everything going on.
In the eastern rites, there have been changes to the liturgy, as happened in the 1960’s Roman rite, but nothing that changed it essentially. Even in the most liberal eastern rites, there has never been a “Novus Ordo Missae.” As in the 1960’s Roman rite, Catholics worship side by side with faithful Catholics, liberal Catholics and even undeclared heretics. Also, the Eastern rites have a striking resemblance to the 1960’s Roman rite, in that some bishops and priests defected and were traitors, some were liberal, some confused but keeping their Faith, and others who kept their Faith and to some extent resisted the Vatican II religion. The eastern rites despite the fact that they are under attack, are really for the most part, the last battleground in the 2,000 year old canonically structured hierarchical Church where Catholicism, as it has always existed continues, with dioceses, bishops with jurisdiction to rule these dioceses, canonically erected parishes with assigned pastors, with Catholics worshiping God with the same sacraments.
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Post by Nandarani on Jun 30, 2018 18:36:11 GMT -5
A telephone interview with an early traditionalist friend of mine, who describes what it was like when the Crisis in the Church hit everyday Catholics. Audio quality...not the best. I think I had a wrong mic setting. Anyway its not intolerable and an excellent trip through the past (btw this man Phillip was the man who brought me back to my Catholic sensus...if you appreciate this forum you have this man to thank as well) Enjoy! Just sent the podcast via youtube to a former colleague who was born in the '70's and taught himself much that he was not given growing up in Hawai'i. He got information from me, not the other way around, though he was the one who was born Catholic. Nothing here in Hawai'i. If he gets more serious maybe things will sort themselves out further by the time he is ready to leave the state? He is deeply involved in a responsible position in public school, at present.
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Post by Nandarani on Jun 30, 2018 21:08:50 GMT -5
Honolulu: Our Lady of Peace Cathedral. Listening to the podcast I am back to describe what I saw there, when I 'converted' and left a few months later (that was 4-5 years ago) earlier in my learning process:
1. High altar still there. Altar rail still there. Statues still there. but
People go onto the high altar area and walk around to light candles by the statues which are chipped. The priest ooops, presider, never saw him go up there.
Wow... what it must have been like, when it was functioning as a true Catholic Church. It is a beautiful huge, and very old building by Hawai'i standards it is first class heritage. There are two graveyards in Honolulu - the oldest graves date from around a little before mid 1800's. There are no recent graves. Many are ... using cremation (?)
2. In the front center of the cavernous knave - this was the flagship Catholic Church in the Islands - is the table. On the altar side of the table are the chairs - at least one. Female servers at mass under both species another subject - both species like the Episcopal Church and the Eastern Rites.
3. The kneelers are still there. The loft area, where crowds of people used to watch, was undergoing renovation for safety.
So... one entire half of my family, the Lutherans, all were in Pennsylvania (!) I recognize the accent in the speaker. I will have to resist the idea of buying speakers so I can hear Voxx better, too. He is also evidently in PA.
It is very interesting too in other ways. Great podcast.
The time period that the culmination of the travesty occurred = Everything was dissolving, not only the Catholic Church.
Every single person I have met here who was alive pre 1958 has left the Church by their behavior. Yet, I seem to have an unerringly accurate ability to pick them out - as born Catholic.
As for myself: I was looking for exactly what was lost. Anything within the Episcopal Church that had a Catholic flavor, I liked. The Book of Common Prayer was really liked ... it is a smaller version of the Divine Office I learned much later. What an entirely different experience I had, than Catholics alive then did.
But... still. It is also a function of the actual person, as we can see. If a person is not inclined to faith, their abandonment of it is not mysterious. It's entirely natural.
I really liked hearing about Pope St. Pius X ... that most of the bishops (as I understood the tape - it is difficult to hear) did not support his efforts.
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