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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Feb 25, 2018 0:08:54 GMT -5
When deciding what is the true Church we say it must have the four marks; one, holy, catholic, apostolic. How did it come about that these were the marks decided upon? When was this first claimed, does anyone know? Our Lord? The Apostles? Scriptures? The Church? If the last, wouldn't that be sort of testifying for oneself?
What if someone disputed these as the signs of God's true Church? What if they claimed, for example, the most populous church must be the true church, or the most wealthy?
Are these marks because 1) Our Lord wouldn't start more than one church 2) obviously if must be for all people 3) Our Lord was Holy, etc...
Would/should all people of goodwill (for example Protestants, if learning) readily accept these as the marks necessary of a Church of God?
These are just things I'm curious about and have been for some time. Thanks:)
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Post by Pacelli on Feb 25, 2018 15:57:06 GMT -5
When deciding what is the true Church we say it must have the four marks; one, holy, catholic, apostolic. How did it come about that these were the marks decided upon? When was this first claimed, does anyone know? Our Lord? The Apostles? Scriptures? The Church? If the last, wouldn't that be sort of testifying for oneself? What if someone disputed these as the signs of God's true Church? What if they claimed, for example, the most populous church must be the true church, or the most wealthy? Are these marks because 1) Our Lord wouldn't start more than one church 2) obviously if must be for all people 3) Our Lord was Holy, etc... Would/should all people of goodwill (for example Protestants, if learning) readily accept these as the marks necessary of a Church of God? These are just things I'm curious about and have been for some time. Thanks:) Hi Marya, The four marks of the Church were directly taught by Christ and the Apostles, and numerous references are found in the scriptures. The marks of the Church have been from the very beginning the way Catholics can identify the true Church. This truth was taught by the First Council of Constantinople (381) and added to the Niceme Creed. I would urge you to read this book, The Straight Path or Four Marks of the Church, Fr. Phelan, 1915, linked HERE. The book explains the teaching of the Church on the four marks in detail, and gives countless scriptural references for this teaching. The teaching of the four marks is at the very core of our belief, as it gives us certainty that we are truly in the Church founded by our Lord, which from the beginning could be identified by having each of these four marks. If it were not for these identifiers, we could easily be members of a sect that looks like the Church in many ways, and not even realize it. Those outside the Church who believe in the Bible, if they are logical and honest, must accept the truth of these marks as this teaching was given by Our Lord and the Apostles, but, as with many other teachings, such as the Papacy, the true reality of the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion, etc., these people tune out what does not agree with their preconceived ideas about what they or their sect think the Bible teaches.
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Feb 25, 2018 16:16:46 GMT -5
When deciding what is the true Church we say it must have the four marks; one, holy, catholic, apostolic. How did it come about that these were the marks decided upon? When was this first claimed, does anyone know? Our Lord? The Apostles? Scriptures? The Church? If the last, wouldn't that be sort of testifying for oneself? What if someone disputed these as the signs of God's true Church? What if they claimed, for example, the most populous church must be the true church, or the most wealthy? Are these marks because 1) Our Lord wouldn't start more than one church 2) obviously if must be for all people 3) Our Lord was Holy, etc... Would/should all people of goodwill (for example Protestants, if learning) readily accept these as the marks necessary of a Church of God? These are just things I'm curious about and have been for some time. Thanks:) Hi Marya, The four marks of the Church were directly taught by Christ and the Apostles, and numerous references are found in the scriptures. The marks of the Church have been from the very beginning the way Catholics can identify the true Church. This truth was taught by the First Council of Constantinople (381) and added to the Niceme Creed. I would urge you to read this book, The Straight Path or Four Marks of the Church, Fr. Phelan, 1915, linked HERE. The book explains the teaching of the Church on the four marks in detail, and gives countless scriptural references for this teaching. The teaching of the four marks is at the very core of our belief, as it gives us certainty that we are truly in the Church founded by our Lord, which from the beginning could be identified by having each of these four marks. If it were not for these identifiers, we could easily be members of a sect that looks like the Church in many ways, and not even realize it. Those outside the Church who believe in the Bible, if they are logical and honest, must accept the truth of these marks as this teaching was given by Our Lord and the Apostles, but, as with many other teachings, such as the Papacy, the true reality of the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion, etc., these people tune out what does not agree with their preconceived ideas about what they or their sect think the Bible teaches. Pacelli, Thank you. I plan to read the book. It is not that I question that the Catholic Church is the true church, I was just wondering how it came to be that those specific four things were decided upon. If the question should be asked of me, I want to be able to answer coherently. I have gone over First Communion Catechism questions with my children many years, now, and each time when I get to this question, I would wonder what was the background. When were these first identified, discussed, etc. Thanks again!
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Post by Pacelli on Feb 25, 2018 17:20:05 GMT -5
Hi Marya, The four marks of the Church were directly taught by Christ and the Apostles, and numerous references are found in the scriptures. The marks of the Church have been from the very beginning the way Catholics can identify the true Church. This truth was taught by the First Council of Constantinople (381) and added to the Niceme Creed. I would urge you to read this book, The Straight Path or Four Marks of the Church, Fr. Phelan, 1915, linked HERE. The book explains the teaching of the Church on the four marks in detail, and gives countless scriptural references for this teaching. The teaching of the four marks is at the very core of our belief, as it gives us certainty that we are truly in the Church founded by our Lord, which from the beginning could be identified by having each of these four marks. If it were not for these identifiers, we could easily be members of a sect that looks like the Church in many ways, and not even realize it. Those outside the Church who believe in the Bible, if they are logical and honest, must accept the truth of these marks as this teaching was given by Our Lord and the Apostles, but, as with many other teachings, such as the Papacy, the true reality of the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion, etc., these people tune out what does not agree with their preconceived ideas about what they or their sect think the Bible teaches. Pacelli, Thank you. I plan to read the book. It is not that I question that the Catholic Church is the true church, I was just wondering how it came to be that those specific four things were decided upon. If the question should be asked of me, I want to be able to answer coherently. I have gone over First Communion Catechism questions with my children many years, now, and each time when I get to this question, I would wonder what was the background. When were these first identified, discussed, etc. Thanks again! I knew where you were coming from, I have seen that you are a Catholic with a strong Faith and would not have any doubts regarding the Faith. 😀 It’s good that you asked this question, as it is very important to know the background of this doctrine, to explain it to others, and defend it against those who challenge it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 20:27:55 GMT -5
The Church is One
John 10:16: Jesus prophesies that “there shall be one fold and one shepherd.” John 17:17-23: Jesus prays that his followers “may be one as we are one,” and Ephesians 4:4-6: “ There is one body, one Spirit… one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of us all…” 1 Corinthians 1:10: “I appeal to you… that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.” Philippians 2:2: be “…of same the mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.” Romans 12:5: “so we, who are many, are one body in Christ…” 1 Corinthians 12:13: “…by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…” Colossians 3:15: “Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body.”
The Church is Holy
1 Timothy 3:15: “…know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” 1 Peter 2:9-10: “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God… Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God…” Ephesians 2:19-22: “Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”
The Church is Catholic (‘universal’ & ‘of the fullness’)
Matthew 28:18-20: “And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Mark 16:15-16: “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” John 14:26: “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” John 16:12-13: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.”
The Church is Apostolic
Ephesians 2:19-20: “… but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.” Matthew 16:18-10: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Luke 22:28-30: “You [the apostles] are those who have continued with me in my trials; and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” John 15:16: “You [the apostles] did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide…” Matthew 28:16,18-20: “Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee… And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” John 20:21-23: “Jesus said to them [the apostles] again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 20:37:41 GMT -5
From Isaiah's prophecy of the Church in the Old Testament:
"[2] And in the last days the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared on the top of mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills [the Church is visible], and all nations shall flow unto it [the Church is apostolic and universal]. [3] And many people shall go, and say: Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob, and he will teach us his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall come forth from Sion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem [the Church is apostolic and holy]. [4] And he shall judge the Gentiles, and rebuke many people: and they shall turn their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into sickles: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they be exercised any more to war [the Church is holy]. [5] O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Mar 1, 2018 16:07:30 GMT -5
Thank you, INPEFESS. I will just print that off.
I will say, too, the book suggested by Pacelli is great. Not too dense, easy to understand. I have only a small part read so far.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 8:33:27 GMT -5
You're welcome!
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Mar 3, 2018 11:58:49 GMT -5
Pacelli I think Fesses above posts deserve a spot in the resources apologetics?
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Post by Marya Dabrowski on Mar 7, 2018 22:01:07 GMT -5
A quote from the book that demonstrates Our Lord's Church is holy, if you wanted to add it to INPEFESS'.
Ephesians 5:25 " Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it:
[26] That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2018 6:50:33 GMT -5
A quote from the book that demonstrates Our Lord's Church is holy, if you wanted to add it to INPEFESS'. Ephesians 5:25 " Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: [26] That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: [27] That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish." That's a very good quote on her sanctity. I had forgotten about that text. Thanks!
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