myrnam
Junior Member
100th Member
Posts: 94
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Post by myrnam on Jul 4, 2017 19:16:45 GMT -5
Just curious though, is there such a concept "working with a religious order (like Dominican, Franciscan, Jesuit, etc) but not a member of the order" in Canon Law? Not trying to start a fight or argument, but just a quick question. This term that you mentioned is not a term within the CMRI vocabulary as far as I know, it was merely the administrator of this forum way of separating the religious from the secular priest, I believe. As far as I know all those on the "working with" list are in line with Bishop Pivarunas. If that denotes membership or not, I do not know.
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Post by Pacelli on Dec 6, 2017 13:14:58 GMT -5
I want to post a reminder that the permanent and up to date bishop and priest list as discussed in this thread is now in the resourse section, making it more easily accessible, rather than buried in this thread. The up to date permanent list can be found here: tradcath.proboards.com/thread/1222/sedevacantist-independent-priest-listIf anyone has any new names or corrections to be made on the permanent list please PM me or you can post on this thread as the resourse section is restricted.
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Post by Rosvi on Feb 22, 2019 17:32:02 GMT -5
Bishop Héctor Moreno?
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Post by Rosvi on Feb 22, 2019 18:36:30 GMT -5
This gentleman has come to Spain and says he is consecrated by Josep Macek and says that he collaborates with the
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Post by Pacelli on Feb 23, 2019 0:34:09 GMT -5
This gentleman has come to Spain and says he is consecrated by Josep Macek and says that be he collaborates with the I have not heard of “Bp.” Moreno, but I can offer you my advice. I would stay away from him and “Bp.” Macek. My understanding is that Macek is Taylor line, and I have never been confident in that lineage. Unless you can personally be 100% certain of the validity of any of these traditional bishops or priests, then, in my view, the default position is to avoid them until the Church investigates and settles the matter of whether their orders are valid.
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Post by Rosvi on Feb 23, 2019 7:20:55 GMT -5
thank you, since I can not find information what you have told us is that I consecrate macek and petko
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Post by Rosvi on Feb 23, 2019 7:24:41 GMT -5
thank you, since I can not find information what you have told us is that I consecrate macek and petko
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Post by Pacelli on Feb 23, 2019 12:47:36 GMT -5
thank you, since I can not find information what you have told us is that I consecrate macek and petko Bishop Petko is from a different line than Macek. He was consecrated by Bishop Slupski.
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Post by StJoseph on Feb 23, 2019 16:57:46 GMT -5
B. Petko and b. Taylor died this past year.
Fr. Anslem Marie (aka Fr. Graves), last i knew, was under b. Sebastain (duarte-costa line) and was ordained by Sebastian.
Fr. Spray is now under b. Montelongo in FL. He is sedeprivation, not sedevecanti.
Fr. Anton Thai Trinh is a bishop, consecrated by b. Slupski. He is not sedevecanti.
"Fr." Gabriel Tetherow has been laicised. He is not allowed to present himself as a priest to the public and should not be on this list.
Fr. Loius Montelongo is now a bishop, consecrated by b. Taylor.
Fr. Patrick Perez is not sedevecanti.
Fr. Sretenovic, Fr. Starbuck, and Fr. Alvarez (ordained by b. Macek) work with Fr. Perez.
Fr. Mbadugha, ordained by b. Adamson (who consecrated b. Taylor, b. Macek, and b. Montelongo) is independent and not sedevecanti.
Fr. Morel, ex-Sspx, is not sedrvecanti.
B. Zendejas is not independent, but with b. Williamson et al.
Fr. James Buckley is a bishop. Last i heard he is sedevecanti.
Where is the up to date thread? The prior link says non-existent.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Feb 23, 2019 17:05:52 GMT -5
B. Petko and b. Taylor died this past year. Fr. Anslem Marie (aka Fr. Graves), last i knew, was under b. Sebastain (duarte-costa line) and was ordained by Sebastian. Fr. Spray is now under b. Montelongo in FL. He is sedeprivation, not sedevecanti. Fr. Anton Thai Trinh is a bishop, consecrated by b. Slupski. He is not sedevecanti. "Fr." Gabriel Tetherow has been laicised. He is not allowed to present himself as a priest to the public and should not be on this list. Fr. Loius Montelongo is now a bishop, consecrated by b. Taylor. Fr. Patrick Perez is not sedevecanti. Fr. Sretenovic, Fr. Starbuck, and Fr. Alvarez (ordained by b. Macek) work with Fr. Perez. Fr. Mbadugha, ordained by b. Adamson (who consecrated b. Taylor, b. Macek, and b. Montelongo) is independent and not sedevecanti. Fr. Morel, ex-Sspx, is not sedrvecanti. B. Zendejas is not independent, but with b. Williamson et al. Fr. James Buckley is a bishop. Last i heard he is sedevecanti. Where is the up to date thread? The prior link says non-existent. Pacelli
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Post by StJoseph on Feb 23, 2019 17:49:23 GMT -5
B. Slupski died this past year, too, God rest their souls.
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Post by Pacelli on Feb 23, 2019 19:24:29 GMT -5
B. Petko and b. Taylor died this past year. Fr. Anslem Marie (aka Fr. Graves), last i knew, was under b. Sebastain (duarte-costa line) and was ordained by Sebastian. Fr. Spray is now under b. Montelongo in FL. He is sedeprivation, not sedevecanti. Fr. Anton Thai Trinh is a bishop, consecrated by b. Slupski. He is not sedevecanti. "Fr." Gabriel Tetherow has been laicised. He is not allowed to present himself as a priest to the public and should not be on this list. Fr. Loius Montelongo is now a bishop, consecrated by b. Taylor. Fr. Patrick Perez is not sedevecanti. Fr. Sretenovic, Fr. Starbuck, and Fr. Alvarez (ordained by b. Macek) work with Fr. Perez. Fr. Mbadugha, ordained by b. Adamson (who consecrated b. Taylor, b. Macek, and b. Montelongo) is independent and not sedevecanti. Fr. Morel, ex-Sspx, is not sedrvecanti. B. Zendejas is not independent, but with b. Williamson et al. Fr. James Buckley is a bishop. Last i heard he is sedevecanti. Where is the up to date thread? The prior link says non-existent. Thanks for the info. I made the changes to the permanent list. Some of the information is already on the permanent list, but some was not. Regarding Bp. Zendejas, I am not sure if he is actually part of a formal organization governed by Bp. Williamson. My understanding is that Bp. Williamson deliberately did not want an organized group, SSPX part 2, and wants those bishops and priests who work with him to not be a group, rather just bishops and priests who collaborate but are independent. Regarding Fr. Tetherow, I don’t regard Conciliar laicization with any force of law. I am not sure if he was ever conditionally ordained, and this list is only meant to name those operating as traditional bishops and priests in the US, not to settle whether they are actually validly consecrated or ordained, or should be acting as a bishop or priest. If he has declared that he is no longer operating as a priest, I will note that on the list, as I did with Fr. Vaillencourt. If Catholics choose to request the sacraments from a man who claims to be validly ordained but not commissioned by the Church, the onus is on that Catholic to verify that the man they are partaking the sacraments from is actually a priest. This list is only meant to provide the raw data of names of bishops and priests and who they are affiliated with or if they are independent, and if independent whether they are sedevacantist or not. The link to the permanent and only updated list is HERE
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Post by StJoseph on Feb 24, 2019 8:57:02 GMT -5
B. Petko and b. Taylor died this past year. Fr. Anslem Marie (aka Fr. Graves), last i knew, was under b. Sebastain (duarte-costa line) and was ordained by Sebastian. Fr. Spray is now under b. Montelongo in FL. He is sedeprivation, not sedevecanti. Fr. Anton Thai Trinh is a bishop, consecrated by b. Slupski. He is not sedevecanti. "Fr." Gabriel Tetherow has been laicised. He is not allowed to present himself as a priest to the public and should not be on this list. Fr. Loius Montelongo is now a bishop, consecrated by b. Taylor. Fr. Patrick Perez is not sedevecanti. Fr. Sretenovic, Fr. Starbuck, and Fr. Alvarez (ordained by b. Macek) work with Fr. Perez. Fr. Mbadugha, ordained by b. Adamson (who consecrated b. Taylor, b. Macek, and b. Montelongo) is independent and not sedevecanti. Fr. Morel, ex-Sspx, is not sedrvecanti. B. Zendejas is not independent, but with b. Williamson et al. Fr. James Buckley is a bishop. Last i heard he is sedevecanti. Where is the up to date thread? The prior link says non-existent. Thanks for the info. I made the changes to the permanent list. Some of the information is already on the permanent list, but some was not. Regarding Bp. Zendejas, I am not sure if he is actually part of a formal organization governed by Bp. Williamson. My understanding is that Bp. Williamson deliberately did not want an organized group, SSPX part 2, and wants those bishops and priests who work with him to not be a group, rather just bishops and priests who collaborate but are independent. Regarding Fr. Tetherow, I don’t regard Conciliar laicization with any force of law. I am not sure if he was ever conditionally ordained, and this list is only meant to name those operating as traditional bishops and priests in the US, not to settle whether they are actually validly consecrated or ordained, or should be acting as a bishop or priest. If he has declared that he is no longer operating as a priest, I will note that on the list, as I did with Fr. Vaillencourt. If Catholics choose to request the sacraments from a man who claims to be validly ordained but not commissioned by the Church, the onus is on that Catholic to verify that the man they are partaking the sacraments from is actually a priest. This list is only meant to provide the raw data of names of bishops and priests and who they are affiliated with or if they are independent, and if independent whether they are sedevacantist or not. The link to the permanent and only updated list is HEREThank you for the update. I have been looking for a list for some time. Yes, b. Zendejas is with b. Williamson et al. "Fr." Tetherow was ordained novus ordo. He was not conditionally ordained. If you consider his ordination legitimate then you should consider his laicization legitimate. If the list does not identify who is legitimate and who is not, of what use is it? Perhaps the list could at least include the lineage of the priest/bishop, to make it useful? (Who ordained/consecrated them, if they were kicked out of their order, if they were NO laicized/excommunicated, etc). I have helped get it started. Maybe others could help, too. It would be a very useful list for all traditionalists.
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Post by Pacelli on Feb 24, 2019 13:32:00 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments, The only purpose of the list was just to get a headcount of who was claiming to be a Catholic traditionalist priest, what group the priest belongs to, and if they are not part of a group, whether they are sedevacantist or not.
I deliberately did not want to take the list further than that, it’s merely to give a quick snapshot of the traditional bishop/priest situation in the U.S. I was going to do a much more extensive researching of all traditional bishops and priests from around the world, but as I dug deeper, I realized that this project would take much more time than I thought, as there are hundreds of bishops, and countless priests beyond that, and I just do not have the time and resourses to undertake this task.
Since Fr. Tetherow claims to be a traditional priest, but has not been conditionally ordained, I will keep him on the list, and will make the notation that he has 1968 Paul VI holy orders. For myself, I have serious doubts about the 1968 rite, and would not request the sacraments from any priest ordained through that rite, or ordained by a bishop consecrated in the 1968 Paul VI consecration rite of bishops. I treat it as though it is invlaid, while I wait for the Church to officially settle the matter when this crisis finally ends.
Its a good idea to add the lineage to the priests, I will think about it. The trouble is some bishops and priests have multiple lineages, so this starts getting complicated. Regarding making the judgment of who is legitimate or not, in the sense of whose orders are valid, or who has behaved as a priest should, etc., such matters are almost always highly controverted, so it would need an entire subforum, rather than a simple list such as this.
Even something as basic as having doubts about Paul VI’s 1968 episcopal and sacerdotal rites is highly unsettled among faithful Catholics, so I will just state my opinion and go no further: in my opinion, the safe course is to avoid the sacramental use of the orders of men ordained/consecrated through this rite until the crisis in the Church ends, and we have a Pope to judge this matter of the new rites.
Then, if we start looking at all of the various lineages of traditional bishops, it gets highly complicated and controversial. For example, the Old Catholics are generally safe, but how do I know they are always safe? The same can be said of the Duarte Costa line? The early Palmarian bishops are most likely valid, but again, how do I know for sure? There are other matters of dispute beyond this.
The des Lauriers, Carmona and Zamora lines coming from Thuc appear to be very safe, and my view is that they are safe. The fact is that even this point is highly controverted, as can be seen by the arguments put forth by Bp. Kelly, Mr. Weiskittel and others. Also, some people seem to cast doubt on the Slupski lineage, which came through the des Laurier line. I am not sure about it.
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Post by StJoseph on Feb 24, 2019 15:35:47 GMT -5
Thank you. Only the last ordination/consecration would need to be posted, for if a priest/bishop submitted to a conditional ordination/consecration, they must believe their original orders to be questionable. If this is not the case, then they commit sacrilege. And if a priest was ordained NO without a conditional ordination then laicised by the same NO, the faithful should know. No opinion in the list, only facts so the faithful have somewhere to start to investigate further. As good as Catholic Candle's priest list is, it is very subective without enough data for a person to make an informed decision. God bless.
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