Post by Pacelli on Jun 4, 2017 15:50:16 GMT -5
Where is the Catholic Church today? (2017)
The point of this is to put thoughts down on paper of exactly where the Church is today, both the hierarchy and the laity, the Shepherds and the sheep.
These are my thoughts built upon decades of reading, thinking, and living through this crisis. I am open to correction on any of these points, if anyone wishes to present a case debunking any particular point. All of my views are for the most part provisional, and will change if the facts change. The theology underlying my points, however, remains a constant.
Roman Rite
1. The Catholic Church is visibly recognizable today and can easily be found among groupings of Roman Rite Catholics or at the Easten Rite parishes.
2. In the Roman Rite, faithful Catholics are easily recognized by the fact that they retreat from the Conciliar sect, not move towards it.
3. Another way of saying point #2 is that faithful Catholics are not comfortable with sectarian ideas, and are ever searching for a safe port in the storm.
4. These Catholics may not correctly identify the correct place, they may find a conservative Novus Ordo, or a FFSP or similar type of mass center, etc., but their actions are demonstrating that they are trying to keep their Faith.
5. Those with the Faith are not comfortable in places clearly dominated by the sect, they are always trying to retreat in some way from it.
6. Even under the umbrella of the undeclared sect, there are groupings, not just individuals of Roman rite Catholics that worship God together. Such groupings are visible and noticeable.
7. The Roman lines of apostolic succession are almost all broken. The few legitimate successors left are elderly and by all appearances are disoriented about who they are and what their role is.
8. Rome as a diocese cannot fail, so in Rome there must still remain legitimate Catholic clergy and laity, even if their numbers are just a few.
Eastern Rites
1. In the eastern rites, all 23 of them, the liturgy has essentially remained intact. Eastern Catholics by and large have not had to retreat from their churches, as the sect has been ineffective, as of yet, in destroying their Traditional and beautiful liturgies.
2. The Eastern Rites, at least in their official acts, have to some extent embraced ideas from the sect, such as ecumenism/interfaith.
3. The Eastern Rites have also to some extent allowed practices from the sect to enter: no longer mandating chapel veils for women, Saturday evening masses anticipating Sundays, standing during the consecration, some examples of allowing altar girls, using inclusive language, etc. Many of the practices, however, are delatinizations, rather than sectarian influence.
4. Despite these practices, the rite itself in all of the eastern rites, essentially remains unchanged.
5. Although examples are found here and there of interfaith activity, group prayers, common worship, etc. it is not widespread.
6. I believe based on the evidence available that the eastern rites as a whole remain intact and Catholic. I say this while acknowledging that some bishops, priests and laity have embraced the tenets of the sect. I do not believe, as of now, the majority or even most have defected.
7. I believe persuasive cases could be presented demonstrating heresy by some eastern Catholic bishops and priests. There are others who certainly may be suspected of heresy.
8. I have never read an indictment of any of the 23 particular eastern rites demonstrating widespread heresy or mass defection. I say this, knowing full well that some of the Eastern Rites are on the line, and exist in a gray area.
9. I believe the eastern rites are for the most part the last holdouts of the successors of the apostles. They have unquestionably valid holy orders, both sacerdotal and episcopal, and there has never, as of yet been indictments of heresy presented against the members of their hierarchy.
10. Their mission can be presumed through supplied jurisdiction, as the conditions are clearly met.
11. The eastern Catholics remain the last place on earth where the ordinary and canonical authorized pastors, priests and parishes can be found.
12. The eastern Catholics and their pristine liturgies and their 10,000 or so priests between all of the rites, maintain Catholic unity throughout the world through their approved worship which presents the Faith visibly and publicly.
13. With this said, I am not going to pretend that all is fine in the east. They believe that the antipopes since Vatican II have been legitimate, this fact alone places them in great danger.
14. It is a fact, as noted above that sectarians ideas and practices are breaking in, that the eastern rites although existing to some extent in a bubble, are not completely secure, as their recognition of the antipope opens them up to extreme danger.
15. The eastern Catholics, in my opinion, are the last remaining authorized place where the successors of the apostles rule, the clerics who are actually running parishes have a commission, and the parishes and priests have canonical standing.
16. The eastern Catholics are under attack, the fortress is holding, but it is weak, their outer walls have been broken, and they are barely holding on from being absorbed by the sect. Enemies have entered, and are wreaking havoc.
17. As the Catholic Church cannot fail, and as the Roman rite is crumbling all across the world, I have the opinion that until we have a pope again, the eastern rites may be the last
place on earth where the Church that remains essentially as it existed prior to crisis exists today, at least in regard to having living successors of the apostles, canonical parishes, authorized priests using pristine liturgies, etc.
18. The time may come, as the Roman lines are almost all gone, when the successors of the apostles may only be found in the Eastern Rites.
The point of this is to put thoughts down on paper of exactly where the Church is today, both the hierarchy and the laity, the Shepherds and the sheep.
These are my thoughts built upon decades of reading, thinking, and living through this crisis. I am open to correction on any of these points, if anyone wishes to present a case debunking any particular point. All of my views are for the most part provisional, and will change if the facts change. The theology underlying my points, however, remains a constant.
Roman Rite
1. The Catholic Church is visibly recognizable today and can easily be found among groupings of Roman Rite Catholics or at the Easten Rite parishes.
2. In the Roman Rite, faithful Catholics are easily recognized by the fact that they retreat from the Conciliar sect, not move towards it.
3. Another way of saying point #2 is that faithful Catholics are not comfortable with sectarian ideas, and are ever searching for a safe port in the storm.
4. These Catholics may not correctly identify the correct place, they may find a conservative Novus Ordo, or a FFSP or similar type of mass center, etc., but their actions are demonstrating that they are trying to keep their Faith.
5. Those with the Faith are not comfortable in places clearly dominated by the sect, they are always trying to retreat in some way from it.
6. Even under the umbrella of the undeclared sect, there are groupings, not just individuals of Roman rite Catholics that worship God together. Such groupings are visible and noticeable.
7. The Roman lines of apostolic succession are almost all broken. The few legitimate successors left are elderly and by all appearances are disoriented about who they are and what their role is.
8. Rome as a diocese cannot fail, so in Rome there must still remain legitimate Catholic clergy and laity, even if their numbers are just a few.
Eastern Rites
1. In the eastern rites, all 23 of them, the liturgy has essentially remained intact. Eastern Catholics by and large have not had to retreat from their churches, as the sect has been ineffective, as of yet, in destroying their Traditional and beautiful liturgies.
2. The Eastern Rites, at least in their official acts, have to some extent embraced ideas from the sect, such as ecumenism/interfaith.
3. The Eastern Rites have also to some extent allowed practices from the sect to enter: no longer mandating chapel veils for women, Saturday evening masses anticipating Sundays, standing during the consecration, some examples of allowing altar girls, using inclusive language, etc. Many of the practices, however, are delatinizations, rather than sectarian influence.
4. Despite these practices, the rite itself in all of the eastern rites, essentially remains unchanged.
5. Although examples are found here and there of interfaith activity, group prayers, common worship, etc. it is not widespread.
6. I believe based on the evidence available that the eastern rites as a whole remain intact and Catholic. I say this while acknowledging that some bishops, priests and laity have embraced the tenets of the sect. I do not believe, as of now, the majority or even most have defected.
7. I believe persuasive cases could be presented demonstrating heresy by some eastern Catholic bishops and priests. There are others who certainly may be suspected of heresy.
8. I have never read an indictment of any of the 23 particular eastern rites demonstrating widespread heresy or mass defection. I say this, knowing full well that some of the Eastern Rites are on the line, and exist in a gray area.
9. I believe the eastern rites are for the most part the last holdouts of the successors of the apostles. They have unquestionably valid holy orders, both sacerdotal and episcopal, and there has never, as of yet been indictments of heresy presented against the members of their hierarchy.
10. Their mission can be presumed through supplied jurisdiction, as the conditions are clearly met.
11. The eastern Catholics remain the last place on earth where the ordinary and canonical authorized pastors, priests and parishes can be found.
12. The eastern Catholics and their pristine liturgies and their 10,000 or so priests between all of the rites, maintain Catholic unity throughout the world through their approved worship which presents the Faith visibly and publicly.
13. With this said, I am not going to pretend that all is fine in the east. They believe that the antipopes since Vatican II have been legitimate, this fact alone places them in great danger.
14. It is a fact, as noted above that sectarians ideas and practices are breaking in, that the eastern rites although existing to some extent in a bubble, are not completely secure, as their recognition of the antipope opens them up to extreme danger.
15. The eastern Catholics, in my opinion, are the last remaining authorized place where the successors of the apostles rule, the clerics who are actually running parishes have a commission, and the parishes and priests have canonical standing.
16. The eastern Catholics are under attack, the fortress is holding, but it is weak, their outer walls have been broken, and they are barely holding on from being absorbed by the sect. Enemies have entered, and are wreaking havoc.
17. As the Catholic Church cannot fail, and as the Roman rite is crumbling all across the world, I have the opinion that until we have a pope again, the eastern rites may be the last
place on earth where the Church that remains essentially as it existed prior to crisis exists today, at least in regard to having living successors of the apostles, canonical parishes, authorized priests using pristine liturgies, etc.
18. The time may come, as the Roman lines are almost all gone, when the successors of the apostles may only be found in the Eastern Rites.