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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 4, 2019 22:40:28 GMT -5
Wenceslav...have you had a chance to size up the new Bishop Boris...he is making liberal sqeaky noises and the priests seem enamored...I am concerned.
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Post by wenceslav on Jul 6, 2019 20:07:38 GMT -5
Hi Vox, Here is an interesting link about Gudziak and the Ukrainian Catholic University (i.e. he was a founder of the Lviv Theological Academy which became the University later). Link
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 7, 2019 0:03:59 GMT -5
Hi Pacelli, Thank you for your kind reply. Also many thanks to Vox for providing this venue to discuss these very important issues. Yes, I hope we’ll return to this if we find more information. I am very happy to share this discussion with a Catholic gentleman of your high intellectual caliber - you put me to shame and deservedly so on many occasions with your articulate posts. I have also admired you for many years when you posted on JL’s forum. I also continue to quote you many times when I post on other forums. My best wishes Thank you for the kind words, Wenceslav. I miss the old Bellarmine Forums. It was the gold standard for every forum and was saddened when JL decided to close it. Fortunately, for all of us, he kept the forum frozen in amber so we can all go back to those old and and useful threads. My best wishes to you as well.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 7, 2019 17:35:07 GMT -5
humphhh...Gold standard...what are we...chopped liver?.... Im keeeeding
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 7, 2019 20:53:05 GMT -5
humphhh...Gold standard...what are we...chopped liver?.... Im keeeeding Lol. I’d like think we are following in the tradition of the Bellarmine Forums: rigorous standards, the necessity of approved sources to support positions, requiring our members to treat each other with justice and charity, agreeing to disagree on non-essential matters where agreement cannot be found, maintaining doctrinal and moral orthodoxy, a great respect for the approved theologians of the Church, etc. This all of course pertains to our serious discussions on the Faith. This forum differs from John’s vision in the one sense that he kept the BF rigorously focused on theology, the crisis, etc. He didn’t see the need for the forum to devote itself to friendly chit chat, which we have and encourage here as well in some of the subfirums. It’s not that he would have a problem with that, only that he had a tough enough time managing the serious stuff, that I don’t think he wanted to extend the forum beyond its restricted scope. The BF’s played a key role at the time of its operation, it in my opinion slammed the brakes on the trend towards sectarian sedevacantism, the non-Una cum position, etc. The BF forum allowed these views to be openly challenged and debunked. Many at that time were being duped by the flawed thinking of some prominent sedevacantists, and it was the Bellarmine Forums, most particularly John Lane himself, but also many other posters, that pushed back and brought clear thinking into the numerous debates of that time period. Fast forward, the Bellarmine Forums closed in 2015. This forum is probably going to be my last stop on Catholic Forums. It continues on its theological vision to what John started back in 2005. We vocally resist the sectarian push of sedevacantism. We vocally resist those who advocate the non-una cum position. We advocate for Catholics to go to mass, and defend their right to do so as liberally (in the good sense of the word) as possible, and we understand, as John clearly did that Catholics have a right to go to valid Catholic masses, and if anyone says otherwise the onus is on them to show where it is in law that one cannot go. John was in my opinion the most passionate and vocal person on earth to stand up for this principle, and in my view, we continue his efforts on this forum. The fact that you, Voxx, are an eastern rite Catholic, in my view, makes me doubly support this forum, knowing that you see things outside the box. It seems to me that the path forward in the Church not only includes the east, but, that the Church of the east will be the last remaining place where the fully functioning apostolic Church will be found during this crisis in the coming years.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 8, 2019 11:28:07 GMT -5
But Im concerned that this new Bish Boris is a vanguard on the attack on the east...we could not hope that the east wont be confronted by the evil one. Obviously it will be by destroying the concept of uniates vs orthoducks and this "visionary" has already in his first speech made vague comments tword this end. (no time to cite it right now)...and Wenceslav posted disturbing stuff above as to his ambivalence on the sodomites. As per the forum...I think forums have been surpassed by the other social media...there is little activity on forum so the back and forth is low...and the slow response times compared to twitter fb and the others changes the dynamic. BUT we are superior in that we can elucidate and cite sources and document clearly. So yeah this is our last forum I think. But it would be near nothing if it wasnt for your constant work. I would love to Have John post here... anything.
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Caillin
Approved Cath Resource contributor
Posts: 136
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Post by Caillin on Jul 8, 2019 12:10:14 GMT -5
FWIW, JL has recently been active in Edward Feser’s blog comment section. His contributions there have made for some very interesting discussions and debates. Search “Aquinian” in the comments section of the blog posts.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 9, 2019 3:43:04 GMT -5
FWIW, JL has recently been active in Edward Feser’s blog comment section. His contributions there have made for some very interesting discussions and debates. Search “Aquinian” in the comments section of the blog posts. please induce him to join us
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 10, 2019 22:45:15 GMT -5
But Im concerned that this new Bish Boris is a vanguard on the attack on the east...we could not hope that the east wont be confronted by the evil one. Obviously it will be by destroying the concept of uniates vs orthoducks and this "visionary" has already in his first speech made vague comments tword this end. (no time to cite it right now)...and Wenceslav posted disturbing stuff above as to his ambivalence on the sodomites. As per the forum...I think forums have been surpassed by the other social media...there is little activity on forum so the back and forth is low...and the slow response times compared to twitter fb and the others changes the dynamic. BUT we are superior in that we can elucidate and cite sources and document clearly. So yeah this is our last forum I think. But it would be near nothing if it wasnt for your constant work. I would love to Have John post here... anything. Well, it is concerning, but let’s face it, none of the Eastern Catholic Bishops have taken a public stand against any of the modern heresies and errors against the Faith. Some of them might be on board with it, while those that still believe the Faith have seemed to just retreat to the east, seemingly just ignoring the crisis in the Church, or maybe seeing it as a Latin rite problem. I am not sure this new bishop is going to be a change agent for the modernists. From Wenceslav’s source, he sounds more like a politician, checking to see which way the winds are blowing and going with whatever is the current safe course. Yes, it’s wimpy, and not a Catholic approach, but at least he appears to not want to push some radical ideas of his own, as he probably doesn’t have them to begin with. My guess is that at least for now at the parish level, things will go on the same as usual. A lax pathetic wimpy bishop who presumably still believes the Catholic Faith, is better than a radical public heretic. The former, as bad as he is, and fully deserving of censure by authority, is still a bishop of the Catholic Church, and his presence in the office maintains the unity of the Church, despite all of the problems. The latter, a public heretic, is not even in the office, and his presence in the office as a usurper only causes harm to the unity of the Church.
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Post by wenceslav on Jul 29, 2019 7:08:56 GMT -5
For the sake of closure for this thread (at least from my perspective) is the discussion of the removal of perceived “anti-semitisms” from the Ukrainian Catholic Holy Week. These changes were initiated by Ukrainian Basilians in 1990 by a publication of a new Horologion (Divine Office) which edits out phrases that castigate the Jews for “deicide” or call upon God to punish them. This new Horologion, which contains the prayers and hymns (Matins, Vespers etc) for Holy Week services has become the de facto standard for Ukrainian Catholics throughout the world. Here is a descriptive link for the 2014 edition of the Horologion (i.e. English translation of the original 1990 Basilian version). Horologion Definition I have translated an excerpt from Fr. Galadza’s Ukrainian-language article “ The Vatican II Declaration Nostra Aetate and the Problem of Anti-Jewish Phrases in the Liturgical Hymnography of the Byzantine Churches”. Source here. Fr. Galadza, who is certainly not “Traditional” makes the typical case, as his colleagues in the Novus Ordo”, for these changes although the original Traditional wording is based on the New Testament. It’s the old Ratzingerian canard of a parallel salvific covenant applicable to the Jewish people. I will post a few of the changes in the Ukrainian Catholic Holy Week discussed by Fr. Galadza. From Fr. Galadza’s article: The above was changed to the following in the new Horologion: Source. CommentsIt’s clear that under the influence of Nostra Aetate, Ukrainians like Galadza reject that the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished i.e. the synagogue or the Old Law is abolished. Note that the Traditional verse is based on St. Matthew 12:39, Isaias 6:1, Apoc. 21:2. Douay-Rheims version: There are a myriad other changes and deletions according to Galadza. I will post more if readers of this thread desire more examples.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jul 29, 2019 9:09:31 GMT -5
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Post by wenceslav on Jul 29, 2019 12:34:44 GMT -5
The following changes are less important than the one in my last post but it illustrates the nauseating political correctness of those that published the new Horologion. Again this is just a sample of the changes.
Antiphon 12 (tone 8), Passion Matins for Great Friday
Antiphon 11 (tone 6), Passion Matins for Great Friday
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Post by wenceslav on Jul 29, 2019 19:02:35 GMT -5
Hi Vox, For a more complete discussion of the changes in the Holy Week verses/stichera see Prof. Basilius Groen’s paper. ( Source.) Note the changes that the author desires for the Holy Week Byzantine Liturgy is directed at the “Orthodox “ church which remains more resistant than its Eastern Catholic counterparts. The proposed changes (and associated complaints), that he discusses in his paper are already fait accomplis in the Ukrainian Catholic Church, unfortunately. The Galadza paper is better (i.e. deals specifically with the Ukrainian Church) but it’s written in Ukrainian and I don’t have the free time to translate it into English.
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Post by Pacelli on Jul 31, 2019 16:42:29 GMT -5
Thank you for all of this Wenceslav. It is concerning, and all Catholics, Latin and Eastern should be aware of these problems. My view, as it stands now, are that these are real problems, but they are not a clear defection that would be a cause to abandon one’s parish.
The changes are in my view unacceptable, but do not elevate this to “red lighting” the Divine Liturgy of the Ukrainian rite. I am not saying that you are saying that, only offering my opinion as to where we are now, for what it’s worth, as these matters may be confusing to some.
In my view, we should move the goal posts as far as possible until there is a clear defection, as we see in the Novus Ordo of the Latin rite, prior to abandoning the canonically approved parishes of the Church, and for many Catholics this may mean becoming “home-aloners” or close to it by either cutting oneself off from the sacraments or severely limiting one’s options as to where one will go.
So while I agree with your concerns and I am happy that you are bringing these matters to light for those who are unaware, I think it important to keep these things in perspective as to what it means in the practical order of things as to how Catholics should react as to whether they can still in good conscience still attend the Divine Liturgy of the Ukrainian rite.
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