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Post by wenceslav on Jun 6, 2019 9:35:43 GMT -5
See video of typical Ukrainian Catholic parish in Western Canada. The eparchies in Western Canada have relatively recently mandated the kiss/handshake of peace. This is also tolerated in the Toronto Eparchy and is prevalent in the parishes that are close to me. This is just one of the latest innovations in the Ukrainian Catholic Liturgy since Vatican II. See June 2, Video at ~40 minute mark from which I have saved the pictures below SourceOut of curiosity, for those that attend the Ukrainian or Ruthenian Liturgy in the USA, - is this happening yet?
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 6, 2019 12:11:32 GMT -5
Thanks Wenceslav,
Its amazing how fast things keep moving towards more innovation in the liturgy. Fortunately, I have not seen this here and have not heard anything about it until I read your post. Let’s hope the problem doesn’t spread.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 6, 2019 14:28:15 GMT -5
I will protest this if they try it...cant actually see the ruthenians and ukrainians going for it however
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 6, 2019 22:54:51 GMT -5
I will protest this if they try it...cant actually see the ruthenians and ukrainians going for it however I agree Voxx. This sounds like a modernist bishop or bishops forcing innovation into the Divine Liturgy, not a universal problem throughout the Ukrainian Rite of the Church. As far as I see it, at least for now, it appears to be a local problem isolated to parts or maybe all of Canada.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 7, 2019 9:26:19 GMT -5
Perhaps the “kiss or handshake of peace” was not mandated (as in The Western Canadian Eparchies) but it is certainly encouraged at least in the Archeparchy of Philadelphia.
Your interesting comments reminded me of this article from Fr. Mark Morozowich of the Catholic University of America.
The Liturgy and the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the United States: Change through the Decades, U.S. Catholic Historian (2014). I will post entire article-pdf, if anyone wants.
Comments
(1) Sounds Novus-Ordo-ish and very similar to the wording of the mandate given by the hierarchs in Western Canada. I find it incredulous that the early Church had anything resembling the spectacle of walking around and exchanging handshakes. The Divine Liturgy/Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary. The ones shaking their hands with exuberance before our Lord on the Cross were the enemies of our Divine Saviour.
(2) I realize that +Soroka was only encouraging this practice, and perhaps many good priests ignored it but it doesn’t bode well for what changes may be coming. The new Metropolitan (Boris Gudziak) of Philadelphia is a known liberal and a hard-core Ecumenist (and president of Catholic University of Ukraine)- well known in western Ukraine as a promoter of the updating of the UGCC.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 7, 2019 13:14:26 GMT -5
Wenceslav,
You may be right that innovations and modernist practices are coming to the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the U.S. I hope you’re wrong, but I have no delusion that the Eastern wall can hold up forever, it’s already been breached in many places, and things are getting worse not better.
I do have the belief that the entire Catholic Church cannot exist in an extra-Constitutional situation. It seems to me that the entire Latin Church as an organization has failed, with only ungoverned pockets remaining, mostly made up lay people requesting the sacraments from non-canonical priests at privately owned chapels.
The only places remaining that we see the visible Church as an organization which is still functioning: dioceses, jurisdictional Bishops, parishes, pastors, priests saying the ancient liturgy, etc. are the eastern rites. I do not see this organized Catholicism that is structured according to the Church’s own Divine Constitution in the Latin Rite.
When I see the eastern rites, even in their weakened state, I see an organized body that still fulfills this teaching from the Baltimore Catechism:
Let’s hope the Ukrainians can hang on, as they are the largest of all of the eastern Catholic Churches, but if they fail, then we will still have the remaining eastern rite churches who have not defected.
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 7, 2019 14:19:37 GMT -5
Actually it was the REMOVAL of the kiss of peace by the Clergy on the altar( not amongst the laity) that was a novelty. And a recent Change according to our Good friend Phill. They changed it when they changed the "books"
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 7, 2019 14:27:03 GMT -5
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Jun 7, 2019 14:30:59 GMT -5
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 7, 2019 14:47:16 GMT -5
Pacelli,
I agree with you. In my responses, I was simply focusing on this particular issue and not on the general picture - as the situation may be. My only qualification, to your description, is that the damage to the Eastern Rites is more widespread.
Hence, there is a real danger for many Roman Rite Catholics, to simply go to their local Eastern rite parish and think that everything is safe. Unlike you or Vox who are quite schooled in the history and Liturgy of the Eastern Churches, many Latins (I.e. “Trads”) may not recognize the innovations that have crept in. And therefore I’m quite happy that Vox has created a space where we can discuss such things.
A good question to ask oneself- at what point do the innovations make it dangerous to attend a specific Eastern parish. For example, in the 19th century, even before a schism was consummated, parishioners would stop going to a parish where the Russophile priest would introduce standing for Holy Communion. Even Metropolitan Shepticky is known to have said that the Catholics of Kholm were ready to die as martyrs for this issue. The list continues if you want to discuss more details.
That is why I personally feel safer at the extra-constitutional SSPX/CMRI chapel knowing that I have a relatively safe environment to practice my Faith without having to sift all those issues (that I alluded to, above) in my mind. At the same time I do of course realize that there must be a bishop(s) (an Ordinary), probably eastern rite, somewhere out there. Since these innovations did not come from the Catholic Church, even a bishop who is of good faith and not a Modernist/heretic may be imposing innovations that are detrimental to my spiritual well-being.
I am in no way trying to insult anyone here or the choices they have made. I am just explaining my thought process as best as I see it, knowing that I am a fallible human being.
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Post by wenceslav on Jun 7, 2019 15:19:42 GMT -5
Actually it was the REMOVAL of the kiss of peace by the Clergy on the altar( not amongst the laity) that was a novelty. And a recent Change according to our Good friend Phill. They changed it when they changed the "books" Hi Vox, Thanks for the info. I realize that the “kiss of peace” is not an innovation. It is still retained, for example, in the Latin Liturgy during Holy Ordination. But the Novus-Ordo-ish walking around, laughing and smiling by both priest and laity, certainly is. If the kiss of peace (among the laity) makes an appearance in your Eparchy, I would take an educated guess and say that it would be no different than in the Ukrainian Church I featured above in the OP. I hope it doesn’t happen, though.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 7, 2019 22:29:33 GMT -5
Actually it was the REMOVAL of the kiss of peace by the Clergy on the altar( not amongst the laity) that was a novelty. And a recent Change according to our Good friend Phill. They changed it when they changed the "books" Hi Vox, Thanks for the info. I realize that the “kiss of peace” is not an innovation. It is still retained, for example, in the Latin Liturgy during Holy Ordination. But the Novus-Ordo-ish walking around, laughing and smiling by both priest and laity, certainly is. If the kiss of peace (among the laity) makes an appearance in your Eparchy, I would take an educated guess and say that it would be no different than in the Ukrainian Church I featured above in the OP. I hope it doesn’t happen, though. The kiss of peace is part of the ancient liturgy, but let’s face it that the “Novus Ordo kiss of peace” is not part of the Tradition of the Church, it’s a complete innovation. It’s practice of having the priest come off the Altar being buddies with the laypeople, handshaking and hugs and chit chat all around cannot be found anywhere in any rite in the entire history of the Church. It seems from the pictures that this is what the Ukrainians in Canada are imitating, the Novus Ordo version.
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Post by Pacelli on Jun 7, 2019 22:54:14 GMT -5
Pacelli, I agree with you. In my responses, I was simply focusing on this particular issue and not on the general picture - as the situation may be. My only qualification, to your description, is that the damage to the Eastern Rites is more widespread. Hence, there is a real danger for many Roman Rite Catholics, to simply go to their local Eastern rite parish and think that everything is safe. Unlike you or Vox who are quite schooled in the history and Liturgy of the Eastern Churches, many Latins (I.e. “Trads”) may not recognize the innovations that have crept in. And therefore I’m quite happy that Vox has created a space where we can discuss such things. A good question to ask oneself- at what point do the innovations make it dangerous to attend a specific Eastern parish. For example, in the 19th century, even before a schism was consummated, parishioners would stop going to a parish where the Russophile priest would introduce standing for Holy Communion. Even Metropolitan Shepticky is known to have said that the Catholics of Kholm were ready to die as martyrs for this issue. The list continues if you want to discuss more details. That is why I personally feel safer at the extra-constitutional SSPX/CMRI chapel knowing that I have a relatively safe environment to practice my Faith without having to sift all those issues (that I alluded to, above) in my mind. At the same time I do of course realize that there must be a bishop(s) (an Ordinary), probably eastern rite, somewhere out there. Since these innovations did not come from the Catholic Church, even a bishop who is of good faith and not a Modernist/heretic may be imposing innovations that are detrimental to my spiritual well-being. I am in no way trying to insult anyone here or the choices they have made. I am just explaining my thought process as best as I see it, knowing that I am a fallible human being. I agree with you that Catholics need to be warned that there are problems at many Eastern parishes, and this is why I linked the disclaimer and advice to every eastern rite directory I posted on the resource page. LINK
If I ever posted a directory of traditionalist parishes it would also need a disclaimer to warn Catholics about the myriad of problems and spiritual dangers present there as well. I think most of the dangerous innovations found in some eastern rite parishes would be spotted by most Latin Rite Catholics, because they are also found in Novus Ordo parishes, such as Altar girls, woman readers for the epistle, mass facing the people, pathetic and useless sermons that may or may not include errors against the Faith, etc. Here is a video of the Chaldean rite of mass: It won’t take too long to spot innovation after innovation. This is not an exception, but is the rule in the Chaldean rite. They are very close to having their own Novus Ordo. This is why I urge Catholics to avoid them. It may still be valid, but their innovations are so serious and they are so far gone that they, IMO, pose a danger to the Faith. It might be that there are a few good Chaldean priests left, but they must be well hidden, as the practices in this video appears to be the norm. Anyway, so as to not go to far afield, I will start a new thread more dedicated to this aspect of the discussion soon.
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