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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 16:19:26 GMT -5
We do not tolerate errors against the Catholic Faith on this forum. I accept the Letter of the Holy Office.I affirm the first part which is traditional and 'Feeneyite'. The second part contradicts the first part.This is unacceptable. It also contradicts the first part by assuming unknown people on earth are known exceptions to Feeneyite EENS.This is not rational. This is nonsense philosophy. Otherwise I affirm all Church documents and accept the teachings of the Catholic Church. You have to explain to me how can unknown cases of the baptism of desire in March 2018 be exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to the missionaries and Magisterium of the 16th century or according to St.Francis Xavier and St.Ignatius of Loyola? I repeat I am not denying the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance. I am not a traditionalist who rejects BOD, BOB and I.I. I am not a traditionalist who rejects Feeneyite EENS. I am not a traditionalist who rejects Vatican Council II( without the premise). I affirm Vatican Council II ( without the BOD are visible premise). I am not a liberal who rejects EENS and affirms visible for us BOD, BOB and I.I. I am not a liberal who affirms Vatican Council II ( with the premise) and so rejects Feeneyite EENS.
-Lionel There is no contradiction in the Holy Office letter. I will await your sources to substantiate your accusation of heresy against the Holy Office. Btw, just to give you some food for thought, think about St. Emerentiana. Was she a member of the Church when she died?
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 16:23:20 GMT -5
one must be a member to be in the Church.
One must be a member to be in the Church since Jesus says all need the baptism of water for salvation(John 3:5). So one becomes a member with the baptism of water. The baptism of water is given to adults with Catholic faith. So one becomes a member with 'faith and baptism'(Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II).Jesus those who do not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16).Most people who will die in 2018 will not be Catholics. So the majority of people on earth are oriented to Hell according to Vatican Council II (AG 7) and John 3:5 and Mark 16:16. One cannot be a member of the Church with the baptism of desire since we cannot give any one the baptism of desire. One cannot be a member of the Church with invincible ignorance. Neither can we choose to be martryed with the baptism of blood. However the baptism of water can be given to someone. It is concrete and tangible. It can be repeated. We can check if some one knows the teachings of the Church this is practical.We can ask someone questions about the faith.
So the popes and saints have said that every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation and the Letter of the Holy Office says every one does not need to be a member.One of them is wrong ? The Magisterium in the 16th century says every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation and so there was Mission and now the Magisterium says every one does not need to be a member since there the baptism of desire is an exception. It is an exception? Since there are cases known to the Magisterium of people saved outside the Church ?
This was the wrong reasoning brought into the Church by the Letter of the Holy Office which was unorthodox and criticized Fr.Leonard Feeney for his orthodoxy.
So Vatican Council II , interpreted with the false premise is unorthodox and Archbishop Lefebvre was correct to criticize this version of the Council. However the popes and the CDF Prefects accepted this irrational interpretation of Vatican Council II and so were unorthodox.
Placuit Deo issued by the CDF did not affirm the orthodox teachings on salvation. Cardinal Ladaria in answer to a question said that the Church no more teaches exclusive salvation in the Church.The lady journalist had asked him about what had happened to the old teaching on exclusive salvation in the Church, she knew that this was the old teaching.Cardinal Ladaria was unorthodox.-Lionel Andrades
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 16:27:48 GMT -5
Btw, just to give you some food for thought, think about St. Emerentiana. Was she a member of the Church when she died?
No one at the time of St.Emerentiana saw her in Heaven without the baptism of water. If any one claims that she is in Heaven without the baptism of water then who is this person in the Catholic Church ? Did he have some special gift to see people in Heaven without the baptism of water? Does the Church acknowledge that there was such a person at the time of St. Emerentiana? How can St.Emerentiana be a an exception to all needing to be a member of the Church for salvation, during her time ? How can she be an exception in 2018 to all needing to be a member of the Church for salvation? How can possibilities of salvation, speculatibe possibilities, be known examples of salvation outside the Church? Is this rational reasoning.? -Lionel Andrades
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 16:33:19 GMT -5
There is no contradiction in the Holy Office letter. The Holy Office says it is not necessary to be incorporated into the Church as a member and I have cited a long list of popes who state it is necessary.So for you they are all heretical? I am only repeating what those popes and Church Councils have said.
Secondly for the Holy Office not every one needs to be incorporated into the Church as a member for general salvation since there are practical exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This holds water for you. You know of practical exceptions to EENS in your life. There could be practical exceptions to EENS in 1949 ?
I will await your sources to substantiate your accusation of heresy against the Holy Office. I cited the Holy Office saying that every one does not need to be incorporated into the Church as a member for salvation .The Holy Office also infers that unknown cases of the baptism of desire are practical exceptions to the traditional teaching on outside the Church there is no salvation.
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 17:01:44 GMT -5
one must be a member to be in the Church. One must be a member to be in the Church since Jesus says all need the baptism of water for salvation(John 3:5). So one becomes a member with the baptism of water. The baptism of water is given to adults with Catholic faith. So one becomes a member with 'faith and baptism'(Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II).Jesus those who do not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16).Most people who will die in 2018 will not be Catholics. So the majority of people on earth are oriented to Hell according to Vatican Council II (AG 7) and John 3:5 and Mark 16:16. One cannot be a member of the Church with the baptism of desire since we cannot give any one the baptism of desire. One cannot be a member of the Church with invincible ignorance. Neither can we choose to be martryed with the baptism of blood. However the baptism of water can be given to someone. It is concrete and tangible. It can be repeated. We can check if some one knows the teachings of the Church this is practical.We can ask someone questions about the faith.
So the popes and saints have said that every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation and the Letter of the Holy Office says every one does not need to be a member.One of them is wrong ? The Magisterium in the 16th century says every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation and so there was Mission and now the Magisterium says every one does not need to be a member since there the baptism of desire is an exception. It is an exception? Since there are cases known to the Magisterium of people saved outside the Church ?
This was the wrong reasoning brought into the Church by the Letter of the Holy Office which was unorthodox and criticized Fr.Leonard Feeney for his orthodoxy.
So Vatican Council II , interpreted with the false premise is unorthodox and Archbishop Lefebvre was correct to criticize this version of the Council. However the popes and the CDF Prefects accepted this irrational interpretation of Vatican Council II and so were unorthodox.
Placuit Deo issued by the CDF did not affirm the orthodox teachings on salvation. Cardinal Ladaria in answer to a question said that the Church no more teaches exclusive salvation in the Church.The lady journalist had asked him about what had happened to the old teaching on exclusive salvation in the Church, she knew that this was the old teaching.Cardinal Ladaria was unorthodox.-Lionel AndradesWho are you to privately interpret scripture?
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 17:04:38 GMT -5
There is no contradiction in the Holy Office letter. The Holy Office says it is not necessary to be incorporated into the Church as a member and I have cited a long list of popes who state it is necessary.So for you they are all heretical? I am only repeating what those popes and Church Councils have said.
Secondly for the Holy Office not every one needs to be incorporated into the Church as a member for general salvation since there are practical exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This holds water for you. You know of practical exceptions to EENS in your life. There could be practical exceptions to EENS in 1949 ?
I will await your sources to substantiate your accusation of heresy against the Holy Office. I cited the Holy Office saying that every one does not need to be incorporated into the Church as a member for salvation .The Holy Office also infers that unknown cases of the baptism of desire are practical exceptions to the traditional teaching on outside the Church there is no salvation.Your long list of quotes said no such thing. Pull out one quote from the list and show me where it says what you are saying it says, namely that one must be a member to be in the Church, and secondly that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation. I can save you some time, I read each of your quotes, it’s not there.
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 17:32:07 GMT -5
Btw, just to give you some food for thought, think about St. Emerentiana. Was she a member of the Church when she died? No one at the time of St.Emerentiana saw her in Heaven without the baptism of water. If any one claims that she is in Heaven without the baptism of water then who is this person in the Catholic Church ? Did he have some special gift to see people in Heaven without the baptism of water? Does the Church acknowledge that there was such a person at the time of St. Emerentiana? How can St.Emerentiana be a an exception to all needing to be a member of the Church for salvation, during her time ? How can she be an exception in 2018 to all needing to be a member of the Church for salvation? How can possibilities of salvation, speculatibe possibilities, be known examples of salvation outside the Church? Is this rational reasoning.?
-Lionel Andrades Does anyone ever see anyone in Heaven? She was a catechumen who was suddenly murdered. Sudden death leaves no time for sacramental baptism. The context is clear, and no one ever understood this any other way except Feeneyites. All approved books that discuss St. Emerentiana state that she was baptized in her own blood. Besides, I thought you believed in Baptism of Desire and Blood. Why would you doubt the testimony and understanding of that testimony that was passed down to us? tradcath.proboards.com/thread/1534/st-emerentiana
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Post by semperfidelis on Mar 22, 2018 6:07:04 GMT -5
Btw, just to give you some food for thought, think about St. Emerentiana. Was she a member of the Church when she died? No one at the time of St.Emerentiana saw her in Heaven without the baptism of water. If any one claims that she is in Heaven without the baptism of water then who is this person in the Catholic Church ? Did he have some special gift to see people in Heaven without the baptism of water? Does the Church acknowledge that there was such a person at the time of St. Emerentiana? How can St.Emerentiana be a an exception to all needing to be a member of the Church for salvation, during her time ? How can she be an exception in 2018 to all needing to be a member of the Church for salvation? How can possibilities of salvation, speculatibe possibilities, be known examples of salvation outside the Church? Is this rational reasoning.?
-Lionel Andrades How do we know anyone is in Heaven? Membership in the Church is not a guarantee ticket in. Question, can one know even with absolute certainty that oneself is in the state of sanctifying grace?
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Post by Lionel on Mar 22, 2018 6:59:24 GMT -5
Who are you to privately interpret scripture? I am citing the past Magisterium, the popes and Church Councils. Who are you to suggest that they are in heresy and your precious Letter is orthodox? ____________________________________ Your long list of quotes said no such thing. My long list of quotes from the popes are all saying that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation.Even the lady journalist from AP at the Press Conference on Placuit Deo on March 1,2018 knew this.This is a given.
On the other hand the many quotes of the saints on the baptism of desire which are on other threads of this forum do not state that the baptism of desire refers to personally known people in the present times saved as such. This is your inference and that of the liberal theologians. If there are no known cases of salvation outside the Church, if we cannot meet or see any one as such in my life time, then these cases cannot be relevant to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) ? I think they never were relevant. So I repeat, the long lists of popes quoted here state clearly that every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation and the long lists of the baptism of desire, some posted on this thread, do not state that the baptism of desire refers to a known and concrete person. It is taken for granted that it is a reference to a hypothetical case.So it is not a break with the long list of popes supporting outside the Church there is no salvation._________________________ Pull out one quote from the list and show me where it says what you are saying it says, namely that one must be a member to be in the Church, and secondly that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation. I can save you some time, I read each of your quotes, it’s not there. Here is is one. Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." The same council also ruled that those who die in original sin, but without mortal sin, will also find punishment in hell, but unequally: "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains." The rest can be read at this link on Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus_________________________________ Does anyone ever see anyone in Heaven? Precisely. No. So how could she be relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, in her time, when no one saw her in Heaven or on earth without the baptism of water.How can she be cited as an example of salvation outside the Church? This is my point.________________________________ Besides, I thought you believed in Baptism of Desire and Blood. Why would you doubt the testimony and understanding of that testimony that was passed down to us? I believe in the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible as it was known to the popes before Pius XII. For them these were just hypothetical cases, speculative possibilities, things hoped for with good will. After Pius XII and especially at Vatican Council II, BOD, BOB and I.I refer to visible and known people saved outside the Church. They are considered examples of salvation outside the Church. They are seen as exceptions to the dogma EENS. So we have the Tradition of popes before Pius XII and the tradition of Popes after Pius XII. In the past, BOD,BOB and I.I referred to invisible people today they refer to visible people and so become exceptions to Feeneyite EENS. Pope Benedict confirmed this in March 2016(Avvenire) when he said that EENS was no more like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century.He was proclaiming heresy in public. Dogmas are discarded or changed for him. This was also re-confirmed at the Press Conference on Placuit Deo this month.________________________________ How do we know anyone is in Heaven? Membership in the Church is not a guarantee ticket in. The Church guided by the Holy Spirit tells us that membership in the Catholic Church leads to Heaven. Those who are not members are oriented to Hell. If there are any exceptions, either way, they would only be known to God. However we know the ordinary way of salvation, the general rule is 'faith and baptism'(AG 7) in the Catholic Church.________________________________ Question, can one know even with absolute certainty that oneself is in the state of sanctifying grace? I cannot make a general statement for every one on earth. However I know what the Church teaches about mortal sin and If I committed a mortal sin I would lose Sanctifying grace.-Lionel
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Post by Lionel on Mar 22, 2018 7:13:34 GMT -5
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 is in heresy since it rejects the teachings of the popes over the enturies. From the time of the Letter of the Holy Office, the popes are in heresy and in schism with the past popes. We have to choose between the past popes on extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) or the Letter(1949). I am a Feeneyite (invisible people are not visible is my premise). The Letter is Cushingite ( invisible people are visible is the premise). The past popes were Feeneyites.The present two popes are Cushingites. The present two popes accept the second part of the Letter. I reject it. If it is said that I am in heresy ,then be consistent and say that so are the popes over the centuries and so is Vatican Council II (AG 7). I affirm Vatican Council II (Feeneyite).I reject Vatican Council II(Cushingite). I am not saying anything new. I am repeating what the popes have stated down the centuries and for me they are in harmony with Vatican Council II(Feeneyite). I accept the first part of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and reject the second part since it contradicts the first part, with an irrationality, a false premise,nonsensical new theology, which was politically expedient in 1949.-Lionel Andrades
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 22, 2018 12:24:20 GMT -5
Who are you to privately interpret scripture? I am citing the past Magisterium, the popes and Church Councils. Who are you to suggest that they are in heresy and your precious Letter is orthodox? ____________________________________ Your long list of quotes said no such thing. My long list of quotes from the popes are all saying that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation.Even the lady journalist from AP at the Press Conference on Placuit Deo on March 1,2018 knew this.This is a given.
On the other hand the many quotes of the saints on the baptism of desire which are on other threads of this forum do not state that the baptism of desire refers to personally known people in the present times saved as such. This is your inference and that of the liberal theologians. If there are no known cases of salvation outside the Church, if we cannot meet or see any one as such in my life time, then these cases cannot be relevant to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus(EENS) ? I think they never were relevant. So I repeat, the long lists of popes quoted here state clearly that every one needs to be a member of the Church for salvation and the long lists of the baptism of desire, some posted on this thread, do not state that the baptism of desire refers to a known and concrete person. It is taken for granted that it is a reference to a hypothetical case.So it is not a break with the long list of popes supporting outside the Church there is no salvation._________________________ Pull out one quote from the list and show me where it says what you are saying it says, namely that one must be a member to be in the Church, and secondly that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation. I can save you some time, I read each of your quotes, it’s not there. Here is is one. Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." The same council also ruled that those who die in original sin, but without mortal sin, will also find punishment in hell, but unequally: "But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains." The rest can be read at this link on Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus_________________________________ Does anyone ever see anyone in Heaven? Precisely. No. So how could she be relevant to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, in her time, when no one saw her in Heaven or on earth without the baptism of water.How can she be cited as an example of salvation outside the Church? This is my point.________________________________ Besides, I thought you believed in Baptism of Desire and Blood. Why would you doubt the testimony and understanding of that testimony that was passed down to us? I believe in the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible as it was known to the popes before Pius XII. For them these were just hypothetical cases, speculative possibilities, things hoped for with good will. After Pius XII and especially at Vatican Council II, BOD, BOB and I.I refer to visible and known people saved outside the Church. They are considered examples of salvation outside the Church. They are seen as exceptions to the dogma EENS. So we have the Tradition of popes before Pius XII and the tradition of Popes after Pius XII. In the past, BOD,BOB and I.I referred to invisible people today they refer to visible people and so become exceptions to Feeneyite EENS. Pope Benedict confirmed this in March 2016(Avvenire) when he said that EENS was no more like it was for the missionaries in the 16th century.He was proclaiming heresy in public. Dogmas are discarded or changed for him. This was also re-confirmed at the Press Conference on Placuit Deo this month.________________________________ How do we know anyone is in Heaven? Membership in the Church is not a guarantee ticket in. The Church guided by the Holy Spirit tells us that membership in the Catholic Church leads to Heaven. Those who are not members are oriented to Hell. If there are any exceptions, either way, they would only be known to God. However we know the ordinary way of salvation, the general rule is 'faith and baptism'(AG 7) in the Catholic Church.________________________________ Question, can one know even with absolute certainty that oneself is in the state of sanctifying grace? I cannot make a general statement for every one on earth. However I know what the Church teaches about mortal sin and If I committed a mortal sin I would lose Sanctifying grace.-Lionel You are privately interpreting teachings in accord with your own ideas. Despite request after request, you never once provided a single source which said that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation. You were proving a non-sequitor. I already believe there is no salvation outside the Church, as all Catholics must. None of your long list quotes taught "without membership in the Church, there is no salvation." I then tried to provoke you to think about the ridiculous inconstency in your position, as the unbatptized saints such as St. Emerentiana, stand against you, They were never baptized, therefore, they were not members of the Church, yet they were saved. To defend your view, you create a ridiculous idea that she was really baptized after all, even though the liturgy of the Church, and all sources on this say otherwise. This is classic Feeneyite nonsense, when logic traps them, they move the goalposts. You pretend that if we believe St. Emerentiana and all of the other unbaptized martyrs are in heaven, it's a conflict with EENS, Yet, all Catholics have always believed this with no problem until the Feeneyites thought they knew better, some pretended that baptism of blood could not save a soul. The Feeneyites have no sources, except their private interpretation of John 3:5, their perverse and unauthorized twisting of Trent, and a misuse of patristic texts. Feeneyism is a sect, or better said, a confederation of different sects, that are similar, but with clear differences. They all rely on their private judgment of Scripture and Tradition to create their new doctrine. This is why Catholics must denounce and separate themselves from these heretical sectarians. To maintain this rebellion against the Church is to imperil your salvation. Repent. The Holy Office, in its letter, Suprema Haec Sacra, approved by Pope Pius XII correcting Feeney and his followers: Nothing is worth the loss of your immortal soul!
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Post by semperfidelis on Mar 22, 2018 16:00:19 GMT -5
________________________________ How do we know anyone is in Heaven? Membership in the Church is not a guarantee ticket in. The Church guided by the Holy Spirit tells us that membership in the Catholic Church leads to Heaven. Those who are not members are oriented to Hell. If there are any exceptions, either way, they would only be known to God. However we know the ordinary way of salvation, the general rule is 'faith and baptism'(AG 7) in the Catholic Church.________________________________ Question, can one know even with absolute certainty that oneself is in the state of sanctifying grace? I cannot make a general statement for every one on earth. However I know what the Church teaches about mortal sin and If I committed a mortal sin I would lose Sanctifying grace.-Lionel You did not address either question as presented. No one is arguing the point that the ordinary way to salvation is through the Sacrament of Baptism and subsequent membership in the Church. This is similar to the ordinary way for one's sins to be forgiven is for one to go to Confession. However, just as a perfect act of contrition will by extra-ordinary means, dictated by the circumstances to be the only recourse, suffice in the place of the Sacrament of Confession, enabling one to attain sanctifying grace and salvation, baptism of water or desire will suffice under the proscribed conditions if the Sacrament of Baptism is unavailable. Baptism of desire or blood enables one to belong to the Catholic Church, but they are not members of the Catholic Church. The point is that one can belong to the Church without actually being a member. No one is saved without belonging to the Catholic Church although there are those saved without becoming actual members of the Catholic Church. And again as Pacelli has pointed out, you continue to substitute membership in the Church as the dogmatically defined requirement for salvation for the true Church's teaching of the need to belong to the Church being sufficient for salvation. There is an enormous difference between these two phrases which you are either purposely or ignorantly confusing or avoiding to address. We as humans cannot know absolutely the final destination of any soul regardless if they are a member of the Catholic Church or not. More directly now, as I was not talking in generalities, please answer if you know with absolute certainty whether you are in the state of sanctifying grace or not?
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clare
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by clare on Mar 26, 2018 5:35:48 GMT -5
Just a thought that occurred to me some time ago...
Look at this condemned error:
"Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ."
Now, phrasing is important. Consider what is condemned and what is not condemned in that statement:
Condemned: "Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ."
Not condemned: "Faint hope may be entertained of the eternal salvation of some who are not explicitly in the true Church of Christ."
Basically, I am saying that the Syllabus of Errors does not rule out our holding out some hope for those apparently outside the Church. It just says we can't hold out good hope for all of them.
Perhaps we may hold out good hope for some of them, or some hope for all of them; just not good hope for all of them.
If that makes sense!
Anyhow, it seems that, if we may not hold out any hope at all for any of them, the words "good", "at least", "all", and "at all" are redundant. The condemned proposition would be: "Hope is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of those who are not in the true Church of Christ."
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Post by pauljoseph on Feb 14, 2019 19:35:25 GMT -5
I find this discussion very unsettling and confusing. (That was exactly eight (8) words.)
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Post by Voxxkowalski on Feb 15, 2019 20:11:15 GMT -5
I find this discussion very unsettling and confusing. (That was exactly eight (8) words.) why(one word)
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