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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 14:18:42 GMT -5
Like Vatican Council II, the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 can be interpreted with the for and against EENS method or the for and neutral to EENS method , with or without the Ladaria Error, with or without the false premise and the conclusion will be different.
Like Vatican Council II, the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston can be interpreted with the for and against EENS method or the for and neutral to EENS method , with the Ladaria Error or without it, with the false premise or without it.The conclusion would be different. So when the baptism of desire(BOD), baptism of blood(BOB) and being saved in invincible ignorance(I.I) is mentioned in the Letter(1949) there are two ways to interpret it.1) We can assume that they refer to hypothetical cases known only to God or 2) we can infer, as is commonly done, that it refers to known people saved outside the Church, saved without the baptism of water in the Catholic Church.Or we can assume that we humans can know of people who will be saved outside the Church, without Catholic faith and the baptism of water. We can assume that they refer to invisible people in 2018 and this would be the obvious choice or we can wrongly assume that they refer to visible people in 2018. Either way our conclusion would be different since the premise is different. The Holy Office 1949 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII chose the irrational option. It assumed that BOD, BOB and I.I referred to known people saved outside the Church, in other words, there were personally known people saved in 1949 without the baptism of water.So BOD, BOB and I.I became an exception to Feeneyite EENS. Similarly at Vatican Council II , Lumen Gentium 16( invincible ignorance), Lumen Gentium 14( case of the catechumen) etc is read by the Magisterium today as exceptions to traditional, Feeneyite EENS.So on March 1,2018 Cardinal Luiz Ladaria at the Press Conference on Placuit Deo in answer to a question, said Lumen Gentium 8 was an exception to the old exclusivist understanding of salvation. This indicates that he interprets the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 and Vatican Council II with the for and against EENS method, with the false premise and with the Ladaria Error. So the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 heretically said that it was not necessary that everyone be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation, while the dogma EENS defined by three Church Councils says, it is necessary. The Letter of the Holy Office was an innovation in the Church with a new theology based on an irrational philosophical premise.It was accepted by the Magisteriium of the Church.-Lionel Andrades
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 14:36:28 GMT -5
Lionel wrote:
Provide even one source which states that membership in the Church is equivalent to one being in the Church, or retract your rash assertion. Also, I do not want Feeneyite games here. When I say I want a source, I mean a source that exactly supports your assertion, not a self-interpreted source with a forced meaning that is not there.
Until you provide either of these, your posting privileges here are suspended. We do not tolerate errors against the Catholic Faith on this forum. The rejection of the 1949 Holy Office letter that was approved by Pope Pius XII and ordered published is not something that Catholics are free to disregard.
Btw, it is only a perversion of the meaning of Holy Office letter that allows one to interpret it in opposition to previous Catholic teaching. The Holy Office taught and authoritatively made clear what was was already being taught by the Doctors of the Church and theologians going back hundreds of years, none of which conflicted with Church teaching except in the imagination of the Feeneyites.
At this point you are not banned, but if you post anything else without resolving this matter, by either providing your sources or retracting your allegation against the Pius XII Holy Office, you will be banned from this forum.
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 15:03:06 GMT -5
Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member- Letter of the Holy Office 1949 Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…” Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” -from the website Catholicism.org So the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 heretically said that it was not necessary that everyone be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation, while the dogma EENS defined by three Church Councils says, it is necessary. Read more: tradcath.proboards.com/thread/1533/accusation-heresy-holy-office?page=1#ixzz5APpRE0qo
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 15:04:36 GMT -5
Provide even one source which states that membership in the Church is equivalent to one being in the Church
Ordinary Magisterium
Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia )
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum )
Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter )
Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)
Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus )
“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae )
Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane )
Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum )
Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos )
Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 15:07:55 GMT -5
Feeneyite games here
Lionel: I have clarified in my introduction that I do not reject the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance. I have also clarified that BOD, BOB and I.I for us human beings can only refer to hypothetical cases. So they are not exceptions to the dogma EENS for me. They do not contradict the popes and Church Councils quoted above. So I am not using the apologetics of the St. Benedict Centers, USA or the Society of St.Pius X or the sedevacantists. I speak for only Lionel Andrades.
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 15:10:34 GMT -5
Provide even one source which states that membership in the Church is equivalent to one being in the Church Ordinary Magisterium Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247) Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia ) Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423) Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum ) Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter ) Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647) Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus ) “He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae ) Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane ) Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum ) Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos ) Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953) None of this states that membership in the Church is the same as being in the Church. None of this states that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation, I am still waiting. No Feeneyite games. Do not give sources which are privately interpreted to go beyond what they state.
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 15:13:57 GMT -5
So now we can have the baptism of desire as referring to visible and invisible cases and the conclusion would be different. One of the conclusions has to be heretical since the premise is irrational. We can interpret Vatican Council II with LG 16 and LG 14 as referring to visible and invisible cases and the conclusion would be different. One of the premises is irrational and so its conclusion would be different. The Letter of the Holy Office interprets the baptism of desire as referring to known people saved outside the Church and so it concludes that there are known exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and so Fr. Leonard Feeney was wrong.This is a rejection of the traditional interpretation of the dogma EENS. The conclusion is non traditional and heretical. Due to the error in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 today we have two interpretations of Vatican Council II, one is traditional and the common one is heretical. I choose the traditional and rational interpretation -Lionel Andrades
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 15:17:43 GMT -5
Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member- Letter of the Holy Office 1949 Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…” Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” -from the website Catholicism.org So the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 heretically said that it was not necessary that everyone be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation, while the dogma EENS defined by three Church Councils says, it is necessary. Read more: tradcath.proboards.com/thread/1533/accusation-heresy-holy-office?page=1#ixzz5APpRE0qoDitto to my last post, I am still waiting. I said “no Feeneyite games” for a reason. While you assert that you speak only for yourself, you are using their signature methods. The long list of quotes do not address the matter at hand, but sow confusion on the precise point. It is a textbook Feeneyite ploy. Now, please substantiate your claim by providing exactly what was asked.
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 15:28:58 GMT -5
Btw, it is only a perversion of the meaning of Holy Office letter that allows one to interpret it in opposition to previous Catholic teaching.
The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 tell us that invisible for us baptism of desire is a visible exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So it contradicts the list of popes and Church Councils quoted in the Ordinary and Extraordinary Form above.(Its from Wikipedia on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus).So all those popes and Councils are in heresy and the Letter is correct? ______________________________
The Holy Office taught and authoritatively made clear what was was already being taught by the Doctors of the Church and theologians going back hundreds of years,
Lionel: The popes and Church Councils quoted above do not state that invisible for us baptism of desire etc is a visible exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This is a false inference by many Catholics. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 like the liberal theologians interprets the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance, when it is mentioned by the popes and saints, as referring to visible and known people saved outside the Church. So they become exceptions to traditional EENS over the centuries. For me they are simply invisible cases. This is something obvious. __________________________
none of which conflicted with Church teaching . 1.The Letter 1949 assumes invisible cases are visible and are examples of salvation outside the Church.Where are the visible cases of the baptism of desire etc ? There are none. The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus says there is no salvation outside the Church. 2.The Letter assumes that hypothetical cases of BOD, BOD and I.I in principle are non hypothetical. This is not rational for me. ________________________
except in the imagination of the Feeneyites The popes and Church Councils quoted above are ALL Feeneyites. None of them state that invisible for us BOD, BOB and I.I are visible exceptions to traditional outside the Church there is no salvation. The baptism of desire references in other threads on this forum all refer to invisible and unknown people in our reality. The popes and saints quoted do not state that those references are to known people , someone whose name and surname they know or have seen in Heaven saved with0ut the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. None of them state this. But yet this is wrongly inferred by many traditionalists.The saints and popes do not state it but the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 wrongly suggests this.-Lionel Andrades
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 15:35:50 GMT -5
So the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 heretically said that it was not necessary that everyone be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation
The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.-Letter of the Holy Office 1949
'that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member'
This is stated in the next of the Letter of the Holy Office. One is not always required to be incorporated into the Church actually as a member ? Why, whom do you know today March 2018 who you have seen been saved outside the Church? The dogma says outside the Church there is no salvation and Pope Pius XII says outside the Church there is known salvation. The Church Councils in the Extra Ordinary Magisterium say outside the Church there is no salvation you consider them heretical since they are 'Feeneyite'? Lionel Andrades
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 15:37:46 GMT -5
Btw, it is only a perversion of the meaning of Holy Office letter that allows one to interpret it in opposition to previous Catholic teaching. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 tell us that invisible for us baptism of desire is a visible exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So it contradicts the list of popes and Church Councils quoted in the Ordinary and Extraordinary Form above.(Its from Wikipedia on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus).So all those popes and Councils are in heresy and the Letter is correct?______________________________ The Holy Office taught and authoritatively made clear what was was already being taught by the Doctors of the Church and theologians going back hundreds of years, Lionel: The popes and Church Councils quoted above do not state that invisible for us baptism of desire etc is a visible exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. This is a false inference by many Catholics. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 like the liberal theologians interprets the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance, when it is mentioned by the popes and saints, as referring to visible and known people saved outside the Church. So they become exceptions to traditional EENS over the centuries. For me they are simply invisible cases. This is something obvious.__________________________ none of which conflicted with Church teaching . 1.The Letter 1949 assumes invisible cases are visible and are examples of salvation outside the Church.Where are the visible cases of the baptism of desire etc ? There are none. The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus says there is no salvation outside the Church.2.The Letter assumes that hypothetical cases of BOD, BOD and I.I in principle are non hypothetical. This is not rational for me.________________________ except in the imagination of the Feeneyites The popes and Church Councils quoted above are ALL Feeneyites. None of them state that invisible for us BOD, BOB and I.I are visible exceptions to traditional outside the Church there is no salvation. The baptism of desire references in other threads on this forum all refer to invisible and unknown people in our reality. The popes and saints quoted do not state that those references are to known people , someone whose name and surname they know or have seen in Heaven saved with0ut the baptism of water in the Catholic Church. None of them state this. But yet this is wrongly inferred by many traditionalists.The saints and popes do not state it but the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 wrongly suggests this.-Lionel Andrades
I am still waiting. You were asked:
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 15:48:33 GMT -5
Your original accusation of heresy against the Holy Office:
What you need to prove:
1. That one must be a member to be in the Church. 2. That one must me a member to be saved.
Please provide exact sources for both. Again, I do not want privately interpreted sources which do not teach on either of the above.
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 15:58:07 GMT -5
membership in the Church is equivalent to one being in the Church
I have quoted the popes and Church Councils above who state that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation.This was the traditional teaching of the Church. Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) says all need faith and baptism for salvation.All refers to every one. One becomes a member of the Church with 'faith and baptism'.It is referring to Catholic faith with the baptism of water. This was the teaching of the Church long before Fr. Leonard Feeney was born and it did not originate with him. The Catechism of the Catholic Church(1994) also states that the Church is like the Ark of Noah that saves in the Flood (CCC 845). This was the description used by St,. Thomas Acquinas. He held the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So did St. Augustine. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also says God the Father wants all people to be united into the Church for salvation(CCC 845). All. The Catechism 1257 states the Catholic Church knows of no means to eternal salvation other than the baptism of water.The baptism of water was given to believers in only the Catholic Church.It was the only Church Jesus founded.
The Catechism of Pope Pius X does not say that invincible ignorance is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiaam nulla salus..Numbers 24Q and 27Q in the Catechism are Feeneyite.Confusion arises with 29Q which can be interpreted as being visible or invisible. Similarly the Council of Trent and the Catechism of the Council of Trent affirm ' Feeneyite EENS' it meantions 'the baptism of desire therof' which refers to a hypothetical case. It is speculation with good will and so it does not contradict the traditional teaching on EENs mentioned at Trent. Similarly the Athanasius Creed says outside the Church there is no salvation .... and there are many other documents I could quote since this is the standard teaching of the Church over centuries.-Lionel Andrades
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Post by Pacelli on Mar 21, 2018 16:05:55 GMT -5
membership in the Church is equivalent to one being in the Church I have quoted the popes and Church Councils above who state that membership in the Church is necessary for salvation.This was the traditional teaching of the Church. Vatican Council II (Ad Gentes 7) says all need faith and baptism for salvation. All refers to every one. One becomes a member of the Church with 'faith and baptism'.It is referring to Catholic faith with the baptism of water. This was the teaching of the Church long before Fr. Leonard Feeney was born and it did not originate with him.The Catechism of the Catholic Church(1994) also states that the Church is like the Ark of Noah that saves in the Flood (CCC 845). This was the description used by St,. Thomas Acquinas. He held the 'rigorist interpretation' of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So did St. Augustine. The Catechism of the Catholic Church also says God the Father wants all people to be united into the Church for salvation(CCC 845). All. The Catechism 1257 states the Catholic Church knows of no means to eternal salvation other than the baptism of water.The baptism of water was given to believers in only the Catholic Church.It was the only Church Jesus founded. The Catechism of Pope Pius X does not say that invincible ignorance is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiaam nulla salus..Numbers 24Q and 27Q in the Catechism are Feeneyite.Confusion arises with 29Q which can be interpreted as being visible or invisible. Similarly the Council of Trent and the Catechism of the Council of Trent affirm ' Feeneyite EENS' it meantions 'the baptism of desire therof' which refers to a hypothetical case. It is speculation with good will and so it does not contradict the traditional teaching on EENs mentioned at Trent. Similarly the Athanasius Creed says outside the Church there is no salvation .... and there are many other documents I could quote since this is the standard teaching of the Church over centuries.-Lionel Andrades None of your quotes teaches on the matter of whether one must be a member to be in the Church. All of your quotes only deal with no salvation outside the Church, not who is in the Church. If you think otherwise, provide any of your quotes that states this. I will say again, I don’t want privately interpreted quotes that do not say what you say they are saying. Again, what you need to prove: 1. That one must be a member to be in the Church. 2. That one must me a member to be saved. Please provide exact sources for both. Again, I do not want privately interpreted sources which do not teach on either of the above.
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Post by Lionel on Mar 21, 2018 16:08:16 GMT -5
We do not tolerate errors against the Catholic Faith on this forum.
I accept the Letter of the Holy Office.I affirm the first part which is traditional and 'Feeneyite'. The second part contradicts the first part.This is unacceptable. It also contradicts the first part by assuming unknown people on earth are known exceptions to Feeneyite EENS.This is not rational. This is nonsense philosophy. Otherwise I affirm all Church documents and accept the teachings of the Catholic Church. You have to explain to me how can unknown cases of the baptism of desire in March 2018 be exceptions to the Feeneyite interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to the missionaries and Magisterium of the 16th century or according to St.Francis Xavier and St.Ignatius of Loyola? I repeat I am not denying the baptism of desire, baptism of blood and being saved in invincible ignorance. I am not a traditionalist who rejects BOD, BOB and I.I. I am not a traditionalist who rejects Feeneyite EENS. I am not a traditionalist who rejects Vatican Council II( without the premise). I affirm Vatican Council II ( without the BOD are visible premise). I am not a liberal who rejects EENS and affirms visible for us BOD, BOB and I.I. I am not a liberal who affirms Vatican Council II ( with the premise) and so rejects Feeneyite EENS.
-Lionel
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